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Richard Phinney

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Was Montrose the Best Golf Course in the world 1800-1850?
« on: September 11, 2009, 07:30:47 AM »
I'd be interested in any reaction to this thesis, which has emerged from researching a book on the bicentennial of Royal Montrose.

Not only was the golf at Montrose exciting (according to visitors), it was super abundant  As an example, it had 14 distinct fairways when St. Andrews had only 10 (not counting holes simply played again in the opposite direction, Musselburgh at most 8, and Aberdeen, Berwick, Leith and Glasgow even less than that.  The green at Montrose seems not to have been quite so overgrown as at St. Andrews (this is before Tom Morris widened fairways and the introduction of double greens on the Old Course), and not as plagued with washing, nets, horsemen and other inconveniences as at other places.  The Montrose Rules of 1830 give no respite for moving impediments on the fairway (unlike at St. Andrews) which might be reflection of this.

In fact, this comparison likely understates the abundance of golf available at Montrose, as there were really innumerable holes to choose from. Albeit at a later date (1866) it hosted a professional tournament over 25 holes ('one round of the course') when the Open Champtionship was being played over 12. The 25-hole course was over 8000 yards, and is still likely the longest course ever played by professionals in a serious tournament (Willie Park and Tom Morris competed, both coming in with a 119!).

Even in 1847  the average length of holes at Montrose was 391 yards  --  longer than on the championship course today.  Plus, golf in Montrose was in rude health in the first half of the 19th century (where in other centres it seems to have been in the doldrums), with half a dozen clubs formed, including arguably the firsty working-man's and junior clubs (during the feathery period).  Though the aristrocrats at St. Andrews/Edinburgh garner more publicity at the time, there are several celebrated challenge matches at Montrose at the time, including a famous night match for the equivalent of about $50,000 a hole.

Montrose's position vis a vis St. Andrews and other golfing centres certainly changes with the railway age, and with the introduction of more sophisiticated maintenance (new courses could now be laid out through more rambunctious terrain), though Horace Hutchinson still rated Montrose as one of the top 3 in Scotland as late as 1891 when many of its best holes on the South Links  had been abandoned.  The course would change again with the  arrival of Harry Colt in 1913 but that is another story.   

Brian_Ewen

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Re: Was Montrose the Best Golf Course in the world 1800-1850?
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2009, 08:59:07 AM »
Should "Harry Colt" not read Park Jnr. ?

Or have I missed something AGAIN ?

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Was Montrose the Best Golf Course in the world 1800-1850?
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2009, 10:29:53 AM »

Richard

Send me your e-mail address to mh.morrow@sky.com and I'll send you an newspaper article on Montrose A Toutnament at Montrose from 1888.

Melvyn

Richard Phinney

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Re: Was Montrose the Best Golf Course in the world 1800-1850?
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2009, 10:55:48 AM »
Should "Harry Colt" not read Park Jnr. ?

Or have I missed something AGAIN ?

There's  only one hole that could in any meaningful way be attributed to Park Jr. Colt recommended a significant rerouting in 1913 and much of it was acted upon, though with mixed and massively controversial results.

Niall C

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Re: Was Montrose the Best Golf Course in the world 1800-1850?
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2009, 11:23:59 AM »
Brian

I'm pretty sure Richard is right, it was Colt who suggested building holes in the dune areas and leaving more holes for a second/relief course, the suggestion being that the championship course was a bit bland and didn't utilise the best/most interesting ground. If I remeber rightly (from what I've read, I wasn't around then) Colt also got rid of a lot of the plateau greens which were in vogue at the time.

That being the case I'll suggest Montrose wasn't the best course back then irrespective of length, number of holes etc.

Niall

Richard Phinney

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Re: Was Montrose the Best Golf Course in the world 1800-1850?
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2009, 11:55:52 AM »
Brian

I'm pretty sure Richard is right, it was Colt who suggested building holes in the dune areas and leaving more holes for a second/relief course, the suggestion being that the championship course was a bit bland and didn't utilise the best/most interesting ground. If I remeber rightly (from what I've read, I wasn't around then) Colt also got rid of a lot of the plateau greens which were in vogue at the time.

That being the case I'll suggest Montrose wasn't the best course back then irrespective of length, number of holes etc.

Niall

The 'uninteresting ground' that Colt speaks of (and, as Niall rightly says, had incorporated into the auxillary curse) wasn't used in the pre-1850 days. Instead, there were also holes on the massive areas of linksland on what was called South Links now largely used for the GlaxoSmithKline plant, various civic amenities, and housing. (We get a glimpse of what the terrain was like in some early photos).  There really can't be any doubt I don't think, that Montrose and St. Andrews boasted the pre-eminent links pre 1850, but I wonder if we have any reason at all to think the Old Course  of the time (' a mangy links that wound along narrow footpaths through strands of whins, with putting greens pocked by heather crushed shells and bare dirt' - Tommy's Honour) was superior.  Given that the Old Course's architectural merits today are largely associated with the various strategic options that its wide fairways, large greens, and fast running turf offer, what were its merits pre-1850?     

Niall C

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Re: Was Montrose the Best Golf Course in the world 1800-1850?
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2009, 05:53:50 AM »
Richard

I bow to your superior knowledge. Can you post any of the photos you mentioned ? Do you have a plan of the earlier course or know roughly green sites etc. It would be interesting to see if there was anything left on the ground that might be evident. I've seen it at a few other links courses where old green/tee complexes were abandoned and holes stretched out or rerouted, you can still see clearly where they were.

Richard - are you doing a book on Montrose ?

Niall
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 05:57:00 AM by Niall Carlton »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Was Montrose the Best Golf Course in the world 1800-1850?
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2009, 09:30:52 AM »
Richard
It sounds like there was some fall out as a result of Colt's redesign - what is the story?

Brian_Ewen

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Re: Was Montrose the Best Golf Course in the world 1800-1850?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2009, 09:39:36 AM »
Must admit the evolution of Montrose seems to have gone through so much alterations over the years its a heid scratcher to me .

I only have William Coull's 'Golf in Montrose' to go by , and I can find no mention of Colt in it at all .... so I have missed something .

I cant understand the thinking that Colt gets the credit for moving the course to the dunes area , and the getting rid of plateau greens , when surely the Table hole is a signature hole of Park Jnr. ?

As stated several times on here , erosion is a big problem at Montrose , and changes were made again this year , where the 2nd tee has been moved inwards , and I am led to believe a new 1st green will be built shortly , to allow the 2nd hole to be lengthened.

I really should have been able to report on this first hand by now , but sadly Montrose has gone from a regular value for money visit , to a pricey once a year event .

Richard , what has ever stopped the course expanding on the dune area to the north ?

Niall C

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Re: Was Montrose the Best Golf Course in the world 1800-1850?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2009, 09:51:35 AM »
Brian

I'm still speaking from memory as I haven't got access to my notes but if I remember correctly, Colt's plans caused a bit of a stooshie. With regards to the plateau greens, they might not have got rid of them all but apparently there was a lot of them on the course at that time.

Niall

Richard Phinney

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Re: Was Montrose the Best Golf Course in the world 1800-1850?
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2009, 08:33:52 AM »
Thanks for comments...I've just posted a draft excerpt from the book we are working on that will help answer some of the queries.
Cheers!

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