[Ulrich Mayring]

At my home course the cart fee for members is dirt cheap, 10 Euros per cart (something between $10 and $15). So you'd think that everyone would be riding, but it is still an exception. A good number of courses here in Germany don't even have carts or only very few. Those with disabilities basically stick to the courses that can accommodate them.

So, apparently, I have it very good here. On the other hand most of our courses suck. We have nothing like Bandon, Pinehurst, Pebble Beach or whatnot. Now wait, says Melvyn, what about the UK? We have great courses and a walking culture. Yes, I reply, but you have the shittiest weather of all.

So I guess everyone has to shoulder his burden

Ulrich

[Melvyn Morrow]

Ulrich

I blame the war

Melvyn

[Patrick_Mucci]

I am old (53) and feel older,but I don't remember the $5 caddie fee.  Only Mucci can go that far back.

That's true.
My father used to remind me that when he caddied, the rate was a quarter and if you got a nickel or a dime tip, that was a big deal.
Now caddies get $ 100 a bag at many clubs

I think the most important part you're missing is that the prevalence of carts came about primarily as a revenue stream to the clubs.

I'd disagree with that.
While carts provided the club with a NEW revenue stream, that wasn't the primary reason for their rise to promiinance or prevalence in the Met area.
Some clubs had mediocre caddy programs and some clubs priced their carts lower than the caddy fee.
Carts let those who had difficulty walking, irrespective of the cause, enjoy a round of golf.
Carts initially reduced the time of play dramatically.  Nine holes in an hour was common.

At clubs I'm familiar with, that wanted to build or continue excellent caddy programs, those taking a cart still had to take a caddy.

Sadly, most golfers found that riding was easier and the presumed cart "profit" sealed the deal.
Caddies have been dying ever since.

For the record,I believe that cart "profit" is phantom at a lot of member-owned clubs when everything is factored in fairly.
Having been involved with green committees and budgets for almost as long as your 53 years, I can tell you that the cart profit is not a "phantom" item, it's real.

The battle I always had with cart revenues/profit was making sure they were earmarked or dedicated to the green budget.

Eventually, they were re-assigned to general revenues as the other operations of the club became more expensive.

The above said,what  Chris Cupit wrote earlier is the truth.
Unless/until a club is prepared to subsidize a caddie program,it's a non-starter.

That's also untrue.
I know many clubs that have excellent caddy programs that aren't subsidized by the club.
There are a number of issues behind a successful caddy program.
Properly set caddy fees.
Caddies being mandatory, with or without a cart.
A good recruiting program (high school, college & misc)
Use of the golf course on caddy day


Few clubs are willing to try because 1) the expense can be significant, and 2) the overwhelming majority of members don't want them.

Where are you coming up with the "expense" part.
Caddies are independent contractors, so how can the club incur "significant" expenses ?

As to "hiring" caddies and treating them as wait staff, it's just not that easy.
Add in taxes and insurance and you might find yourself with a group of employees that are overpaid for just sitting around.
Today, staffing costs are hugely important to clubs and are looked at (correctly IMO) with a magnifying glass.
As to 14 year-olds, if the child labor laws don't get you the liability insurance will.

Caddies are NOT employees of the club.
There are NO taxes or insurance.
There is NO staffing cost other than the possibility that caddies may be supplied with certain clothing, which the states may claim, makes them employees rather than independent contractors.
States require certain work age minimums and youngsters looking to become caddies MUST produce working papers issued by the State/Municipality.

From someone who has tried unsuccessfully to build a caddie program, it's a seriously uphill climb.

I agree with that.
A lot depends upon the "culture" of the club.
Is it a "golf" club or a "country" club ?  There's a big difference, culturally.
We saw the trend going in the wrong direction and made a dedicated effort to reverse it, which we did, after a good deal of work by the committee and golf staff.
The other major component is the pricing mechanism.
If you make carts more expensive than a caddy, you'll get far more caddy usage.
Or, if you insist that those taking a cart still have to take a caddy, you'll get far more usage.

I'm not familiar with your club, but, if you have a hard time implementing the items I've listed above, it's the culture of the club that's at the root of your caddy program problem, and not the other items listed.

The dilema many clubs face seems to be the pre Memorial Day and post Labor Day caddy pool.
When the kids go back to school, the caddy pool takes a hit, but, we have established a solid core of seasonal caddies.

And I don't think my experience is unusual.

Again, I'd agree, but, let me ask you this.
What kind of support have you gotten from your fellow committee members and the membership.
That's where the real problem may lie.

[Josh Stevens]

I do find it rather funny that this debate even exists.  Typically at any traditional old club in Australia or the UK, there is a cultural expection that you will walk if you are able to.  It is not a question of the rules, it is just the way it has always been.  I do not think the issue every being raised at my club or any other club i have visited - golf is meant to be walked and thats that.  If someone wanted to use a cart while they were clearly able bodied, I would probably not want to play with them, not because I think they are gaining an advantage, but because by asking for a cart, they have demonstrated that they just dont view the game the way i do.

Of course, it you are old or infirm and walking is painful or difficult, then that is a different matter.

[rjsimper]

Pat or Tom...

In the earliest days of golf carts, what was the price of an 18 hole cart rental, sans caddie, compared to a caddie loop?

Others -

If carts were $50 and caddies were $50, do you think that at courses where it's not prohibitively routed that walking would be more of a standard in today's game?

I sure think so.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I do find it rather funny that this debate even exists.  Typically at any traditional old club in Australia or the UK, there is a cultural expection that you will walk if you are able to.  It is not a question of the rules, it is just the way it has always been.  I do not think the issue every being raised at my club or any other club i have visited - golf is meant to be walked and thats that.  

If someone wanted to use a cart while they were clearly able bodied, I would probably not want to play with them, not because I think they are gaining an advantage, but because by asking for a cart, they have demonstrated that they just dont view the game the way i do.

Josh,

Do you think that golfers wear their medical records on their golf shirts like logos ?

Most people DON'T want to reveal their health issues, so don't assume that just because someone looks healthy, that they are healthy, so how do you know how they view the game ?

Of course, it you are old or infirm and walking is painful or difficult, then that is a different matter.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat or Tom...

In the earliest days of golf carts, what was the price of an 18 hole cart rental, sans caddie, compared to a caddie loop?


Ryan,

What you and others don't understand is the evolution of the use of golf carts.

You have to understand that before carts, golfers either carried their own bag or took a caddy.
Many clubs prohibited all but their junior members from carrying their bag.
Caddy programs were pretty well entrenched.
So, when carts came along, they were an adjunct to the caddy system.
You took a cart, but you also had to take a caddy, therefore the cost of a cart was low, since the club didn't want to impose a double burden on the golfer.  The club didn't want to have the golfer have to pay a $ 20 caddy fee and a $ 20 or $ 30 cart fee.
Hence, taking a cart became a financial bargain when caddies weren't available (typically pre Memorial Day and Post Labor Day)
That bargain translated into an incentive to take carts and not caddies.
Clubs then altered their mandatory caddy rule and members were financially incentivized to take a cart rather than a caddy and certainly more so than taking a cart AND a caddy.
As a result, many caddies didn't get their double loop for the day.
When ONLY caddies were available, double loops were almost a guarantee.
Men in the morning, women in the afternoon.
When caddies didn't get their double loops at clubs that introduced carts they migrated to other clubs.
When that happened, the original clubs caddy program spiraled downward with fewer and fewer caddies, therefore, the need for more cart usage.
With the favorable pricing mechanism for carts and the caddy ranks diminishing in quantity and quality, carts flourished.

Some clubs woke up, recognized the problem and went about correcting it.

Other clubs continued the downward spiral and became strictly cart oriented.

As this happened, the club's revenue stream from carts accelerated.

Cart use was a considerable profit center and as such, was further encouraged.

So, you can't look at cart use by examining a single frame, you have to see the entire film, all 875,000 frames to better understand the current state of affairs.

Hope that helps.

[Anthony Gray]

Pat or Tom...

In the earliest days of golf carts, what was the price of an 18 hole cart rental, sans caddie, compared to a caddie loop?

Others -

If carts were $50 and caddies were $50, do you think that at courses where it's not prohibitively routed that walking would be more of a standard in today's game?

I sure think so.

  THis is one of the best points I have heard on this subject.

  Anthony

[Steve Kline]

I probably wouldn't play that course because I wouldn't want to pay $50 bucks to take a caddy or ride in a cart. I play close to 100 rounds per year and I'm not about to play a course that forces me to spend an extra $2,000-$5,000 per year to take a cart or caddy. Heck it's hard to afford the dues at my club - and they run just $200 per month. And given that I play close to 50 rounds per year at my club it would be very hard to find a course in my area at a comparable per round rate that I could play pretty much whenever I wanted and not have to endure a 5 hour round. So, cost is one of the big reasons I don't take a cart or caddy.

[JMEvensky]

Pat Mucci,you're looking at carts/caddie programs through a greater-NYC prism.Down south,it doesn't work that way.

Comparing club cultures is difficult,contrasting would be easier (presumed generalities given).When there is only one club in town with anything remotely resembling a caddie program,I promise you that they're dead around here.BTW-that caddie program consists of 8 - 10 older otherwise unemployed men.This is a golf course that's flat and 6500 yards long.Still,the caddies aren't regularly used.

As to having independent contractors on the property in any capacity,I pass.So long as my pockets are deeper than a 14 year-old's,there's liability.In today's world,that's an accident,and lawsuit,waiting to happen.

However,assuming that a club "hired" high school kids,here's the problem.The kids living close enough to the club to get there for work,aren't interested in a $10/hour gig.So now for everyone to get well,the caddie ticket gets close to $100.That's an expensive round of golf and more expensive than most members are willing to pay.Not to mention that I live in Memphis where we look forward to mid-90's for July and August.

The market for caddie programs is very small among existing clubs.It takes a culture that is willing to either walk with a caddie regularly or subsidize their hanging around waiting for a loop.

I would suggest that more clubs with that culture currently will lose caddie programs than those currently without the culture will begin a caddie program.

[Jason Connor]

clearly liberty sustains the pursuit of happiness

Agree.  I am a walking member of the USGA and I drag my butt and my bag through some wicked summer days here in Florida.

But as a golf course owner or operator, I believe he has the right to sell his product however he likes to both maximize his profits and his customers enjoyment.

Asking for laws / regulations to forbid riding is seeking to increase your enjoyment at the expense of golf course owners' profits and their other customers' enjoyment.


Furthermore, competition rounds are all walked.

But recreational sports should be enjoyed however one likes.  For example my hockey league is non-checking -- because that's how us old guys like it (and we all have to get up & go to our real jobs the next day).  Outlawing riding at a golf course seems like outlawing no-check hockey leagues.  Or outlawing softball and making men play baseball --- because that's clearly the way the game was meant to be played.

And I say all this as an adamant walker.  And as someone who believes cartballers are certainly no faster than walkers.

[Sean_A]

Most of this thread is ridiculous.

For one thing, there are VERY few walking-only golf courses in the USA or indeed the world, so the subject is blown out of proportion.  And most of the walking-only courses I know of make exceptions, though not many.

More importantly, there has been almost no recognition here that unlimited golf carts without paths [everyone's stated preference] may severely impact the playing surface.  If you're on a links with fescue fairways, you just CANNOT have a great playing surface if there are more than a handful of carts a day.  So you get a great playing surface, or you get a cart.  Some operations place the priority on the former.

Tom

That is the point of no cart paths - the number of of carts are inherently limited to more or less those who need them.   

Pat

Caddies are not used so much because they are too expensive.  When it was just rich folks playing caddies were in vogue.  After WWII with the rise of not so rich folks playing, caddies started to fall by the wayside and by the 80s with the mega rise of carts the story was written.  Its not much different to robots replacing humans on production lines.  They are cheaper and more reliable.  Unfortunately, robots and carts don't then buy goods and games of golf.  Its a trade-off America has been making for 35 years.

BTW - When the economics of caddies don't work and yet a club sets a rule whereby caddies will be used that is subsidy for caddies because folks not interested in using a caddie have to pay for their services.  

Ciao

[Emil Weber]

Last year my dad and I made the trip to World Woods. We got up at 5 o'clock to drive about two hours to WW, and when we arrived, they took our bags and put them on carts. We said 'err... actually we wanted to walk, is that possible?'
The man replied, totally surprised: 'What? you want to walk? It's been a LONG time since we've seen walkers here!'
Now that's about how many people still walk in July in Florida......

[Chris Cupit]

The above said,what  Chris Cupit wrote earlier is the truth.
Unless/until a club is prepared to subsidize a caddie program,it's a non-starter.

That's also untrue.
I know many clubs that have excellent caddy programs that aren't subsidized by the club.
There are a number of issues behind a successful caddy program.
Properly set caddy fees.
Caddies being mandatory, with or without a cart.
A good recruiting program (high school, college & misc)
Use of the golf course on caddy day


Few clubs are willing to try because 1) the expense can be significant, and 2) the overwhelming majority of members don't want them.

Where are you coming up with the "expense" part.
Caddies are independent contractors, so how can the club incur "significant" expenses ?

As to "hiring" caddies and treating them as wait staff, it's just not that easy.
Add in taxes and insurance and you might find yourself with a group of employees that are overpaid for just sitting around.
Today, staffing costs are hugely important to clubs and are looked at (correctly IMO) with a magnifying glass.
As to 14 year-olds, if the child labor laws don't get you the liability insurance will.

Caddies are NOT employees of the club.
There are NO taxes or insurance.
There is NO staffing cost other than the possibility that caddies may be supplied with certain clothing, which the states may claim, makes them employees rather than independent contractors.
States require certain work age minimums and youngsters looking to become caddies MUST produce working papers issued by the State/Municipality.

From someone who has tried unsuccessfully to build a caddie program, it's a seriously uphill climb.

I agree with that.
A lot depends upon the "culture" of the club.
Is it a "golf" club or a "country" club ?  There's a big difference, culturally.
We saw the trend going in the wrong direction and made a dedicated effort to reverse it, which we did, after a good deal of work by the committee and golf staff.
The other major component is the pricing mechanism.
If you make carts more expensive than a caddy, you'll get far more caddy usage.
Or, if you insist that those taking a cart still have to take a caddy, you'll get far more usage.

I'm not familiar with your club, but, if you have a hard time implementing the items I've listed above, it's the culture of the club that's at the root of your caddy program problem, and not the other items listed.

The dilema many clubs face seems to be the pre Memorial Day and post Labor Day caddy pool.
When the kids go back to school, the caddy pool takes a hit, but, we have established a solid core of seasonal caddies.

And I don't think my experience is unusual.

Again, I'd agree, but, let me ask you this.
What kind of support have you gotten from your fellow committee members and the membership.
That's where the real problem may lie.

Pat,

I think you made the point better than I could.  Maybe "subsidy" is the wrong word but when you FORCE players to take caddies when the "market" would not normally impose that condition, I consider that a subsidy.

Don't get me wrong.  I support caddie programs and support the mandatory caddie policy at it--I would consider that policy a de facto subsidy.  I do not believe you could have a successful caddie program where a player can choose a cart or a caddie and a cart is $20 and a caddie is $80. 

I can assure you I play enough with caddies that given the pathetic job the great majority do today versus even ten years ago, they can not depend on being paid what they "earned"   Clubs must force you to use them and pretty much tell you what you must pay them.  It may be the wrong term but I call that a subsidy.

Lastly, fewer and fewer clubs are able to keep the "independent contractor" designation for their caddies.  As you know the guv'mnt hates independent contractors--they much prefer employees who have their taxes withheld for them by their employer.  East Lake in Atlanta and I believe my home course has just seen the changeover from Independent contractors to employees--i promise it then becomes a "true" expense for the club.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Caddies are not used so much because they are too expensive.  

Compared to what ?
What's the going cart fee ?
What's the going hourly rate for nearby businesses that employ young people.

When it was just rich folks playing caddies were in vogue.  

That's nonsense.

After WWII with the rise of not so rich folks playing, caddies started to fall by the wayside

That's more nonsense.

and by the 80s with the mega rise of carts the story was written.  

The "mega" rise in carts you mention could only be possible if cart use was priced lower than caddy use.
Clubs are at fault for the demise of their caddy programs, either because they mispriced carts and caddies, didn't want caddies, or didn't support caddy programs.

Its not much different to robots replacing humans on production lines.  
They are cheaper and more reliable.  

More nonsense.
The club sets the pricing models.
If carts are cheaper, and caddies more expensive, you've been slain by your own sword.

Unfortunately, robots and carts don't then buy goods and games of golf.  
Its a trade-off America has been making for 35 years.

The nonsense from you is unending.
At clubs I'm familiar with the caddy programs are flourishing.
And, it didn't happen by accident, it was a conscious business decision.

BTW - When the economics of caddies don't work and yet a club sets a rule whereby caddies will be used that is subsidy for caddies because folks not interested in using a caddie have to pay for their services.

Only because you failed in structuring your pricing model.  

[Joe Hancock]

Pat,

You keep using the word "club". Is that the specificity in which you are discussing caddies?

When comparing the cost of caddies vs. carts, can you tell me what percentage of caddy fees goes directly to clubs, on average? I know that golf courses that use carts collect 100% of the fee, minus expenses of course. But there is a net financial gain with carts. I don't know how clubs structure their caddy programs and whether there is a net financial gain associated with caddies.

Joe

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

You keep using the word "club". Is that the specificity in which you are discussing caddies?

No, not solely,
But, it's the club that sets the pricing model for carts and caddies.

If a club doesn't have a mandatory caddy policy, then the member makes a choice which is often financial.
If the club has an imbalance in the costs of a cart versus a caddy, the member will choose the cart.

When comparing the cost of caddies vs. carts, can you tell me what percentage of caddy fees goes directly to clubs, on average?

That's immaterial.
The ultimate cost is the cost to the member.
The member, if the club doesn't have a mandatory caddy pollicy, makes a choice that's often financially motivated.
If the cart is lower priced, the member is incentivized to take the cart at the expense of the caddy.


I know that golf courses that use carts collect 100% of the fee, minus expenses of course.
But there is a net financial gain with carts.
I don't know how clubs structure their caddy programs and whether there is a net financial gain associated with caddies.

There isn't, but then, the member doesn't get the SERVICE associated with a caddy.

If a club makes decisions to operate with the intent of maximizing the bottom line then service to the member will suffer.
No caddies, smaller food portions, lighter drinks, reduced hours of operation, etc. etc..

[Joe Hancock]

Gosh, I would think a club with a healthier bottom line could afford to serve larger food portions and stiffer drinks.

Joe

[Sean_A]

Caddies are not used so much because they are too expensive.  

Compared to what ?
What's the going cart fee ?
What's the going hourly rate for nearby businesses that employ young people.

When it was just rich folks playing caddies were in vogue.  

That's nonsense.

After WWII with the rise of not so rich folks playing, caddies started to fall by the wayside

That's more nonsense.

and by the 80s with the mega rise of carts the story was written.  

The "mega" rise in carts you mention could only be possible if cart use was priced lower than caddy use.
Clubs are at fault for the demise of their caddy programs, either because they mispriced carts and caddies, didn't want caddies, or didn't support caddy programs.

Its not much different to robots replacing humans on production lines.  
They are cheaper and more reliable.  

More nonsense.
The club sets the pricing models.
If carts are cheaper, and caddies more expensive, you've been slain by your own sword.

Unfortunately, robots and carts don't then buy goods and games of golf.  
Its a trade-off America has been making for 35 years.

The nonsense from you is unending.
At clubs I'm familiar with the caddy programs are flourishing.
And, it didn't happen by accident, it was a conscious business decision.

BTW - When the economics of caddies don't work and yet a club sets a rule whereby caddies will be used that is subsidy for caddies because folks not interested in using a caddie have to pay for their services.

Only because you failed in structuring your pricing model.  

Pat

You are spouting more rubbish on this thread than you are whining about ND's loss. Congratulate UofM for their victory like a proper chap and move on.   

Economics is the reason for the demise of caddie programs.  Nobody likes getting ripped off and caddies are the most expensive way to get a bag around the course.  This is why there are relatively few clubs with good caddie programs.  So in a way you are right, clubs are at fault for the demise of caddie programs because they allowed caddie prices to rise too high. 

Let me get this straight, you believe that caddies are cheaper than carts and if they aren't, it is because clubs make carts too cheap?  One flaw in your thinking is most guys don't like to take a bath.  If a club starts charging for a cart the going rate of a caddie (a proper caddie, not a bag carrier boy with an "A" tag on his shirt) then my guess is the members might complain.  Lord, I have heard members complain often enough about artificially inflated cart fees even when they were $10 ott.  Guys start to add it all up and quickly discover they could have had a weekend away somewhere.  Its easy to check genuine cart prices Pat - just call the local public courses.  Keeping cart prices artificially high to make caddies seem a more competitive option is a form of subsidy which tells me that the "program" is only healthy if members' choices are artificially limited.  Let caddies compete straight up against other forms of getting a bag around a course and you find the true worth of caddie programs. 

I reckon you must live in a tender world otherwise known as the posh country club.  Just remember, that the country club set is a very small minority of golfers and thus doesn't accurately reflect what goes on in the golf world at large.   

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gosh, I would think a club with a healthier bottom line could afford to serve larger food portions and stiffer drinks.


It depends upon where the club's priorities are, on food and beverage or GOLF.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Caddies are not used so much because they are too expensive.  

Compared to what ?
What's the going cart fee ?
What's the going hourly rate for nearby businesses that employ young people.

When it was just rich folks playing caddies were in vogue.  

That's nonsense.

After WWII with the rise of not so rich folks playing, caddies started to fall by the wayside

That's more nonsense.

and by the 80s with the mega rise of carts the story was written.  

The "mega" rise in carts you mention could only be possible if cart use was priced lower than caddy use.
Clubs are at fault for the demise of their caddy programs, either because they mispriced carts and caddies, didn't want caddies, or didn't support caddy programs.

Its not much different to robots replacing humans on production lines.  
They are cheaper and more reliable.  

More nonsense.
The club sets the pricing models.
If carts are cheaper, and caddies more expensive, you've been slain by your own sword.

Unfortunately, robots and carts don't then buy goods and games of golf.  
Its a trade-off America has been making for 35 years.

The nonsense from you is unending.
At clubs I'm familiar with the caddy programs are flourishing.
And, it didn't happen by accident, it was a conscious business decision.

BTW - When the economics of caddies don't work and yet a club sets a rule whereby caddies will be used that is subsidy for caddies because folks not interested in using a caddie have to pay for their services.

Only because you failed in structuring your pricing model.  

You are spouting more rubbish on this thread than you are whining about ND's loss.
Congratulate UofM for their victory like a proper chap and move on. 

I didn't whine and I did acknowledge UM's victory.
Richard introduced the ND-UM game results in gloating fashion, I just reminded him that there's a distinction in how a game is played and that should be considered before gloating. 

Economics is the reason for the demise of caddie programs.  Nobody likes getting ripped off and caddies are the most expensive way to get a bag around the course. 

More nonsense, especially from someone who has no experience with the evolution of caddy programs post WWII and pre and post the initial introduction to carts.

This is why there are relatively few clubs with good caddie programs. 


More nonsense, most clubs in the Met area have good caddy programs.

So in a way you are right, clubs are at fault for the demise of caddie programs because they allowed caddie prices to rise too high. 

Have you heard of minimum wage and child labor laws ?

I think the reason for the demise is that they underpriced cart usage and allowed golfers to take carts without a caddy

Let me get this straight, you believe that caddies are cheaper than carts and if they aren't, it is because clubs make carts too cheap? 

Obviously your reading comprehension is lacking.
Carts are cheaper than caddies because clubs priced them that way.
Reread my post on the evolution of cart use and you'll understand.

One flaw in your thinking is most guys don't like to take a bath. 
If a club starts charging for a cart the going rate of a caddie (a proper caddie, not a bag carrier boy with an "A" tag on his shirt) then my guess is the members might complain. 

It's got nothing to do with taking a bath, it's got to do with pricing caddies to meet a number of criteria, while at the same time pricing carts accordingly.

If you mandate caddy use, you can price cart use almost as low as you want.

Lord, I have heard members complain often enough about artificially inflated cart fees even when they were $10 ott. 

Members complain about everything.
If you ran a club based on complaints, you'd have a horrible club.
In addition, you can't run a club based on the lowest common denominator.
A club is a luxury.

Guys start to add it all up and quickly discover they could have had a weekend away somewhere. 
Its easy to check genuine cart prices Pat - just call the local public courses. 
Keeping cart prices artificially high to make caddies seem a more competitive option is a form of subsidy which tells me that the "program" is only healthy if members' choices are artificially limited.  Let caddies compete straight up against other forms of getting a bag around a course and you find the true worth of caddie programs. 

Good caddies aren't going to sit around all day, hoping to get out, only to make minimum wage.
If you want to keep cart prices very low, insist that members taking a cart must also take a caddy, and then price carts accordingly.

Initially, to take a cart, many clubs insisted that you had to have a written and approved medical excuse.

I reckon you must live in a tender world otherwise known as the posh country club. 
Just remember, that the country club set is a very small minority of golfers and thus doesn't accurately reflect what goes on in the golf world at large.

More nonsense.  My early play was at Public courses, before golf carts were in use.
And, the "country club world" is where golf is played and caddies are used.
What goes on in the rest of the world isn't germane to this subject.
I'm contexting my remarks based on clubs in my geographic area and at the courses I've been to outside my area.

Most golfers/members don't want to play behind four bozos riding in a cart that take forever to play because they can't locate their golf balls.

And, unaccompanied guests should always be required to take a caddy   

[Brent Hutto]

Paying someone a hundred bucks, more or less, to do something I am perfectly capable or doing for myself is "too expensive". In its usual meaning of "more money than I want to spend for what I get".

Look I've got no complaints at bundling in the fee+tip for caddies as part of a once in a lifetime experience at an ultra-desirable club somewhere. But it would be a ridiculous waste of money to spend $5K-$10K per year paying someone to tote my bag every Saturday and Sunday when I play golf. And in fact, having another person along to deal with (persons, actually, if everyone in the foursome did it) would positively be a distraction and an annoyance during my game.

The desire to have another person doing mundane tasks instead of doing them oneself is far from universal, regardless of cost. And the amount of money you're talking about with paying fair compensation to a caddie for 4+ hours of work on a routine basis is right out for 99% of the people who play golf.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paying someone a hundred bucks, more or less, to do something I am perfectly capable or doing for myself is "too expensive". In its usual meaning of "more money than I want to spend for what I get".

What clubs have caddies that get $ 100 a bag ?

Look I've got no complaints at bundling in the fee+tip for caddies as part of a once in a lifetime experience at an ultra-desirable club somewhere. But it would be a ridiculous waste of money to spend $5K-$10K per year paying someone to tote my bag every Saturday and Sunday when I play golf.

At what club would you incur that expense ?

How are you arriving at $ 5K-$10 K per year ?

And in fact, having another person along to deal with (persons, actually, if everyone in the foursome did it) would positively be a distraction and an annoyance during my game.

How so ?

What's your handicap ?

The desire to have another person doing mundane tasks instead of doing them oneself is far from universal, regardless of cost.
And the amount of money you're talking about with paying fair compensation to a caddie for 4+ hours of work on a routine basis is right out for 99% of the people who play golf.

How many 60, 70 and 80 year olds do you see carrying their bag ?

How many women ?

You and others seem capable of only contexting this issue in your own self interest, rather than looking at the broader picture.
 

[jeffwarne]

Pat,

 But there is a net financial gain with carts. I don't know how clubs structure their caddy programs and whether there is a net financial gain associated with caddies.

Joe

Joe,
I'm not sure there is a "net financial gain" with carts when you factor in maintenance, expenses, and damage to courses-it's really simply a hidden green fee.
But I can tell you there's NO direct "net financial gain" with caddies
You employ a caddiemaster to deal with 50-70  personnel issues/headaches, you buy uniforms etc., you provide a hospitable waiting area, you provide them access to the course. They keep 100% of their fees.
Is there an intangible  gain-perhaps-but there's not a "net financial gain" unless.... enough people covet the experience to join your club versus another.

What I find frustrating is how caddie dependent people become(not all but many)-it slows the game tremendously.
Just hit it.

I play very few clubs in the UK that employ caddies-and those that have them cater almost exclusively to the visiting Americans-most if not all members pull a trolley.
Granted I do tend to play off the beaten path a bit, but I don't see a lot of locals with caddies in the UK

[Brent Hutto]

Somewhere, somehow a caddie needs to be getting close to $100 a loop. Sharing a caddie between two bags is so annoying that I never intend to accede to that arrangement again. But perhaps $70 is a better estimate. If I had to pay even $70 (whether you call it a fee or a tip or a subsidy from the club to hide the true cost) times the number of rounds I play at my club in a typical year that would be at least $5,000. And if the practice were as universal as some people seem to think it would be, presumably I'd pay something like that every time I played away. And to repeat, I will not willingly suffer a dual-loop caddie arrangement in the future.

The 60-70 years olds I play with regularly are a mixture of about 20% cart riders and 80% walkers. And probably 80% of the walkers use a three-wheel cart for the bag, some push carts and some electric ones. The one guy I play with regularly in his 80's started riding in a golf cart a couple years ago after an illness. Before that he walked and used a Sun Mountain cart. I'd say the ladies at our club probably are less likely to use golf carts than the men of the same age but still a mix of riding carts and Sun Mountains, almost none carry their bags on their shoulders.

My handicap index is 17.7 and I am 49 year old, in perfect health. I walk and either tote or push on a three-wheeler my own bag depending on the weather, the terrain and whether I intend to play more than 18 holes in a day. My ideal golf experience would be to walk straight from my car to the first tee without seeing a single paid employee of the club, shake hands with the people I'll be playing with and start walking and hitting the ball immediately, continuing until the round ends. I require exactly zero services, staff, waiters, caddies, helpers, marshals or other paid or unpaid help to enjoy my round. I tolerate the usual miscellany of clubhouse and pro shop staff and what have you but would not consider belonging to a club with ubiquitous caddies. I wish my own club would desist in having "bag boys" and such but doubt that will happen any time soon. I will admit that a good dining room (which we have) adds a lot to the club but would shed no tears over doing without that luxury.

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