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JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2009, 10:16:03 PM »
Walking Only, carts only for disabilities.  That should be the policy.  Golf is a game and sport that is meant to be enjoyed on foot.  I do enjoy the occasional cart, but I would be better off without them.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2009, 10:23:26 PM »
In Portugal recently it was hot and the walks are generally long and often hilly so a cart is pretty necessary. We contacted one decent course to book a round and were informed of their cart path only rule....we declined to make a booking. The courses there are struggling so golfers can make an impact by asking then declining to play.

While I can understand the US caddie system and certainly at PV the caddie made a good part of the experience, paying upwards of $60 for a kid to carry you bag seems pretty excessive. At one world famous ultra exclusive club I played at my kid knew nothing about the game and I only found out he'd lost a head cover after the round.
Cave Nil Vino

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2009, 10:29:48 PM »
I like Mike Keiser's stance. You should accomodate those who are disabled. But you should have to prove that you are indeed disabled.

I attended a "friends of Mike" outing before Bandon Trails formally opened and the couple of guys who were "disabled" in our large group had no problem getting a cart.  We did have two or three others who labored through their rounds, perhaps their conditions were not as deserving, but what a pity it was to take part of the golfing experience- feeling good, playing a lot of holes- away from them.  So long as no damage is done, why not just let them hop in a cart and fully enjoy themselves?  I far prefer having two carts with four guys on a hole, than a parade of four players and four caddies, but that's me.  Golf is a big world.  Tolerance is good.  It should not be my way or the highway.  It will be interesting to see if Mr. Keiser's model might necessitate some tweaking as the fourth course opens and the economy continues to slide.  He does have deep pockets, the courses were inexpensive to build, and he's enjoyed a number of years of high prices and good volume.  I have to wonder if he'll feed the animal or find new ways of turning some dollars.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2009, 10:41:58 PM »
At my club here are my rules:

1.  You can walk anytime at no charge.
2.  We have Sun Mountain three-wheelers you can rent--$7 for 18 and $4 for 9
3.  Carts are available--$17 for 18 and $10 for 9

A few caveats:

I don't care if you run, walk, ride or hitch-hike, but keep up with the group in front and never take more then 4 hours and 10 minutes to play.

You can walk the front, push the back, ride the front, walk the back--I don't care what combo, just keep up.

My outward nine is flat and an easy walk except for #9 back to the club--400 yards (downhill).  Coming in, that nine is hilly but I have some dedicated walkers and three of them play every Saturday morning around 8:30.  They have no problem staying up with carts and will play way faster if carts are restricted to paths.

For those that want to dictate you must do one or another I'd say be prepared to have a club with a small membership.  I agree that walking is ideal and I will often walk but most who are not quite disabled just can't walk as they are in poor shape--maybe no exscuse but the truth.

I also play at a club that has caddies and here's the bad news re: cost.  In the US I have not seen a successful caddie program that wasn't mandated.  You simply cannot keep good people coming out that fail to get a loop.  And, it is expensive compared to a cart.  $40?  That's like $7-$8 bucks an hour when you figure the caddie showed up 15-30 minutes prior to your arrival, you changed shoes, warmed up (30 minutes at least) and then played in 4 hours and 15 minutes or so.  By the time the caddie has left, he's been there at least 5 and 1/2 hours for $40?  That looper isn't coming back.  It's $75-$80 per person at least and guy needs a double in order to make it worthwhile to become a regular.

Choices :)

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2009, 10:42:46 PM »
Lou_Duran writes:
We live in an era when the few self-anointed "smart" people are hell-bent on dictating to the rest of us, the unwashed, how we must conduct our lives.  Mandatory walking just like mandatory riding is plain wrong.

I'm surprised to hear (actually read) you say that. Right now we have riding-only courses, walking-only courses and hybrid courses. Why not let the market decide? If people like walking only  they will succeed. If they don't, the market will tell them. Just because people like riding in carts doesn't mean they have some god-given right to play Pacific Dunes, just like just because somebody likes to walk doesn't give them the right to play some of the countless courses that force golfers into carts.

Who would have thought Lou was turning into a socialist?

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
"It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed."
 --Vladimir Lenin

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2009, 11:51:08 PM »
If a course has an economic model that supports walking only (ie - a US course not a course in GBI where they actually play "golf") then that is fantastic.

Obviously golf is a walking game, that is how it is intended to be played.

Cart golf is a different game and a different experience.

If all clubs were walking only (with exceptions for those with disabilities) then that would be great - not only for the course, but the golfers who burn a few extra calories and enjoy a true round of "golf". Realistic? Ever?

Bandon and Chambers seem to be proving that this model is viable in certain markets (ie - the NW) - and it is amazing that there are enough passionate walkers/golfers out there to ensure their success.

If carts were not available - how many of the 50 to 70% of cart golfers out there would walk so they could play the game?

How many members of GCA would join a private club if it was walking only?

How many would play a public course if it was walking only?


Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2009, 12:22:26 AM »

How can a real golfer take a cart? How can a player say he has just played a round of golf by using a cart? What is the point of playing golf and not Walking, it’s like saying I believe in God, but totally deny his existence.

Golf is a walking game. Carts have only been around since WW2. IMHO, they do not add to the game, but certainly diminish the contact with the course and just kill any enjoyment of the game.

Carts mean cart tracks, which are the creation of the Devil. 

Melvyn


At Ballyneal the policy is walking only. There are no cart paths and the grass is sensitive fescues. However, in the case of Dean B. who recently died, he was allowed to take a cart because of his terminal condition. Even though he was allowed to take a cart, it was only allowed out early in the morning before heat issues adversely affected the turf. In this case, and some others, I'm extremely proud of the policy and tolerance at Ballyneal. It satisfies all the conditions that make golf such a versatile sport. I'd hate life if everything was as black and white as Melvyn's post illustrates. While I never met Dean B. I know in my heart that his last few months of life were greatly enhanced because he was able to play Ballyneal the way he did. Without that cart, he might've died sooner and less fulfilled.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2009, 01:08:55 AM »
You know what I hate to see on a golf course?

Fat people.

How disgusting to see them and their lazy asses driving their carts. If I owned a course I'd make them pay more because of the damage they do to the grass and even the carts themselves.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2009, 01:48:08 AM »
I pretty much agree with Lou with one proviso - no cart paths.  I don;t like the idea of cart paths interfering with the game.  Either the weather is suitable for carts or it isn't.  

Sean,

The problem with your position is that it doesn't allow for play when a golf course has been saturated with heavy rains.

Many clubs ban cart use after a heavy rain, depriving those who can't walk of the opportunity to play.

But, a well thought out cart path system can avoid turf damage and allow for play under less than ideal conditions.

Why would you want to sideline golfers who CAN'T walk ?




Pat

Understand that this would be my policy for my course.  Others courses can have any policy they please, it is down to the customers to decide if they agree with the policy and if they are therefore willing to give them their business.  If I found that I couldn't remain open without marring the course with cart paths I would certainly compromise - sometimes business comes first.  On a secondary note, I would also have electric trollies for rent as an alternative for those who may consider walking, but don't want to deal with lugging a bag around, but there would probably be days when even these wouldn't be allowed out.  Indeed, there will be days when there can be no play at all.  That is how it goes when a course relies on the weather to detemine its playing conditions.  Sometimes, the need to look after a course is more important than the wants of a membership or the green fee payer. 

Ciao

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2009, 07:24:34 AM »
 8) if you own the course and are independently wealthy, then any damn thing you want.. enjoy
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2009, 07:35:06 AM »
If private - whatever the club wants it to be

If public - whatever the owner thinks will make the most money (consistent with the law).

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2009, 08:06:17 AM »
I also play at a club that has caddies and here's the bad news re: cost.  In the US I have not seen a successful caddie program that wasn't mandated.  You simply cannot keep good people coming out that fail to get a loop.  And, it is expensive compared to a cart.  $40?  That's like $7-$8 bucks an hour when you figure the caddie showed up 15-30 minutes prior to your arrival, you changed shoes, warmed up (30 minutes at least) and then played in 4 hours and 15 minutes or so.  By the time the caddie has left, he's been there at least 5 and 1/2 hours for $40?  That looper isn't coming back.  It's $75-$80 per person at least and guy needs a double in order to make it worthwhile to become a regular.

Hey Chris,
Thanks for the comments on caddies - to clarify, I'm not saying that a course should offer $40 a loop this day in age and expect the nomad caddies to choose to work there.

I'm more wondering at what point did we decide that caddying was skilled labor, worthy of $20/hour cash? Sure there are guys out there that earn it (or try to, as infuriating as they may sometimes be) but my point is that I'd rather have a guy that carried my bag and stayed out of the way and pay the guy less money because of the lowered expectation for performance.

The guys in the bag room make 8-10 bucks an hour...and that's 100% on the books. I'd just rather that someone worked out a way where caddies could be more like golf carts...available if you need them, and at a reasonable cost.  I'm not looking for an "experience" - I just want someone to lug my bag, tend the flag, and help me find my wayward tee shots.

I know of clubs that have caddy programs that have apprentice caddies that make around 40 a loop, and these are mostly high school kids who are disinterested. To me, that's pretty darn close.  Now, just train them a little better, hold them accountable to a minimum standard of etiquette, and that right there may be a viable answer. 

We've all had super-engaged caddies, and we've all had duds...and I've had duds at VERY nice courses. Does a dud caddy really deserve $20-25/hour for his troubles? Because even if we consider caddying to be skilled labor, he's certainly not "skilled" at his craft. I'd rather lower the standard for all...let the career loopers stick to places like Bandon where the role of caddies is not to be an everyday members tool but rather an experience-enhancer for people who don't mind dropping $100 a round, and create the expectation and opportunity that if you are polite, patient, and want to make a quick 40-50 bucks cash (so more like 60-70 depending on how much you want to report to uncle sam) then maybe go carry some golf clubs instead of applying for that job at Edwin Watts.

Just my thoughts - ain't gonna happen, but I'm just saying if the option existed for a reasonably priced caddie, I'd be inclined to take that rather frequently.

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2009, 10:08:49 AM »
I like Mike Keiser's stance. You should accomodate those who are disabled. But you should have to prove that you are indeed disabled.

I attended a "friends of Mike" outing before Bandon Trails formally opened and the couple of guys who were "disabled" in our large group had no problem getting a cart.  We did have two or three others who labored through their rounds, perhaps their conditions were not as deserving, but what a pity it was to take part of the golfing experience- feeling good, playing a lot of holes- away from them.  So long as no damage is done, why not just let them hop in a cart and fully enjoy themselves?  I far prefer having two carts with four guys on a hole, than a parade of four players and four caddies, but that's me.  Golf is a big world.  Tolerance is good.  It should not be my way or the highway.  It will be interesting to see if Mr. Keiser's model might necessitate some tweaking as the fourth course opens and the economy continues to slide.  He does have deep pockets, the courses were inexpensive to build, and he's enjoyed a number of years of high prices and good volume.  I have to wonder if he'll feed the animal or find new ways of turning some dollars.

That was actually Richard Choi's quote...Lou once again well said. Tolerance and understanding is always good.  Put yourself in someone elses shoes and see how you would feel.  That certainly fits for those who want walking only no matter what. I wish that the walking only no matter what folks could envision what it might be like when their knees, hips, backs or feet give out.  Does it really harm your experience that much because a few carts are on the course?

Richard....a doctor's note is actually easier to obtain than an automobile placard.  If you have a temporary injury (foot, back, etc.) what doctor won't write that you are unable to walk a golf course?  But if that is what is required fine.  Just keep in mind that almost any doctor would write that due to blank pain you need a cart...

My problem with Mr. Keiser and Bandon is the lack of carts and the hassle to get one.  You must fax them all of your information so they can 'approve' your disability.  When I inquired it appeared that an auto placard and doctor's note with disability was the minimum although it wasn't clear if this was enough. You must make a reservation well before the 'general' public to insure they will have a cart.  I think that is wrong.  I think Mr. Keiser should have a supply of carts to meet the demands of the disabled without inconveniencing them.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2009, 10:24:39 AM »
I also play at a club that has caddies and here's the bad news re: cost.  In the US I have not seen a successful caddie program that wasn't mandated.  You simply cannot keep good people coming out that fail to get a loop.  And, it is expensive compared to a cart.  $40?  That's like $7-$8 bucks an hour when you figure the caddie showed up 15-30 minutes prior to your arrival, you changed shoes, warmed up (30 minutes at least) and then played in 4 hours and 15 minutes or so.  By the time the caddie has left, he's been there at least 5 and 1/2 hours for $40?  That looper isn't coming back.  It's $75-$80 per person at least and guy needs a double in order to make it worthwhile to become a regular.

Hey Chris,
Thanks for the comments on caddies - to clarify, I'm not saying that a course should offer $40 a loop this day in age and expect the nomad caddies to choose to work there.

I'm more wondering at what point did we decide that caddying was skilled labor, worthy of $20/hour cash? Sure there are guys out there that earn it (or try to, as infuriating as they may sometimes be) but my point is that I'd rather have a guy that carried my bag and stayed out of the way and pay the guy less money because of the lowered expectation for performance.

The guys in the bag room make 8-10 bucks an hour...and that's 100% on the books. I'd just rather that someone worked out a way where caddies could be more like golf carts...available if you need them, and at a reasonable cost.  I'm not looking for an "experience" - I just want someone to lug my bag, tend the flag, and help me find my wayward tee shots.

I know of clubs that have caddy programs that have apprentice caddies that make around 40 a loop, and these are mostly high school kids who are disinterested. To me, that's pretty darn close.  Now, just train them a little better, hold them accountable to a minimum standard of etiquette, and that right there may be a viable answer. 

We've all had super-engaged caddies, and we've all had duds...and I've had duds at VERY nice courses. Does a dud caddy really deserve $20-25/hour for his troubles? Because even if we consider caddying to be skilled labor, he's certainly not "skilled" at his craft. I'd rather lower the standard for all...let the career loopers stick to places like Bandon where the role of caddies is not to be an everyday members tool but rather an experience-enhancer for people who don't mind dropping $100 a round, and create the expectation and opportunity that if you are polite, patient, and want to make a quick 40-50 bucks cash (so more like 60-70 depending on how much you want to report to uncle sam) then maybe go carry some golf clubs instead of applying for that job at Edwin Watts.

Just my thoughts - ain't gonna happen, but I'm just saying if the option existed for a reasonably priced caddie, I'd be inclined to take that rather frequently.

Ryan,
I'd suggest your son or nephew.
Good luck otherwise
Edwin Watts is open when it rains,doesn't make you wait all day without getting paid-gives you a schedule
40 bucks cash after waiting 1-4 hours-participating in a 5 hour round-risking lyme's disease-nice enough for 14 year old-good luck with that workforce-and add in a ton of costs and headaches for sufficiently training, motivating, and maintaining that work force
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2009, 10:54:49 AM »
Cliff,

Here's the problem with your stance - and you need to see this from the course's persepctive.  Give a little and people take a LOT.  We needed carts to stay on fairways out here this year so the rough can stay healthy.  People are told this NUMEROUS times before they tee off.  How many people obey this rule?  Slightly north of 0% and south of 5%. 

I've never seen grown men act like kids with their hand caught in the cookie jar when it comes to s simple rule.  People won't walk 30 extra feet - and they don't understand the DAMAGE it's doing to the course.

So, I respect your stance, but you need to understand that people just don't follow rules - that's why they make it difficult.  You SHLOUD be inconvenienced to take a cart on a walking only course.  How hard is it to go through their protocol, really?

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2009, 11:25:34 AM »
Mike...your points are well taken.  I don't necessarily agree that the disabled should be inconvenienced.  It is a life of inconvenience when there is pain.

My experience has not been that many ask for disabled carts when not eligible.  Many courses have a cart path only rule when it is wet.  Often, not always,  disabled carts are allowed on the course.  As a gross estimate I would say 5-10% of carts are on the fairway (inevitably these have disabled flags - highly unusual to see folks violate the cart path only rule from my experience),

That would not seem like widespread abuse and that is where no proof is necessary.  A doctors note OR placard just seems sufficient.  I think you should be able to show that at the course.  I also feel that the course should have enough carts to accomodate the disabled. 

As a final note I do feel Bandon should post their exact requirements for a disabled cart on their website.  This would make it easier for all.


Melvyn Morrow

Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2009, 11:43:01 AM »

Lets be honest, it has sod all to do about walking or golf for that matter. Its very simple really, it’s down to the individual to decide what and how he plays a game that was know as golf. To walk, ride, let others do the carrying, getting experienced advice, marking distance or obtaining distance from all forms of electronic aids. The game of golf is just secondary when you come right down to the bottom line.

However, Golf is not about what you want to do, it’s about a game with Rules and a very important Etiquette. Its about honour (cheats are frowned upon), about playing the game, of conducting yourself in accordance with the rules and etiquette laid down over many, many years. The standardisation of behaviour, which is accepted to all, an equality, irrespective if you are the highest or lowest, richest or poorest in the land (today The World).

But guess what, certain people don’t understand the game or for that what is behind the game or what it’s all about. The game is being corrupted and money rules, The R&A are servants of money, disgraceful behaviour is being overlooked because of childish and potential dangerous antics of some who should know better.

Give him a break, some say, but what about the Game of Golf, does that not deserve a break from these morons.  Action can be taken, it’s should be taken and the game need to clean up its act.

Many on here want no action taken, they see is as part of the game, ‘Bollocks’, it may be part of your game, it may be acceptable to you, your parents and your culture, but my friends it does not mean its right.  The privileged are already privileged, they don’t need to be allowed to get away with this type of perform in public. If it is not controlled soon, we are sending out a dangerous message, that all are excused if they are brilliant and worth a fortune. Therefore, it soon will be OK for the rich drunk driver to kill, the rich guy to rape your wife or girlfriend, a rich guy dislikes the way you look so attacks you result you are in hospital. Its OK guys they are rich and are just having a bad time, its only his first rape, their first assault, their first murder – well sorry its NOT OK, we have laws to combat this type of thing and Golf also has its rules and more importantly its Etiquette to protect all form this type of behaviour spreading onto a golf course. 

Golf is a walking game first and foremost, carts are acceptable for those who need to use them to play. There should not be a golf club or course that bans walking, to do so is in itself an attack upon our game of Golf, its discrimination in the first degree. Carting is not a right, it did not mature with the early stages of the game, they did not exist until the 1950’s. Nevertheless, walking constitutes the very essence of the game, it is golf or as much about golf as golf can be.

However, it’s not all about walking, is it? It’s about stamping the right of an individual to play how he wants. But, that is not golf, we have rules and course Etiquette as to how to play, why start playing a game then want to change it, certainly not for the good of the game, the golfer or the health of the part time player. Does it really all boil down to just plain bloody laziness, is that what all this is about. The great game of golf bastardised because of laziness. What an epitaph to put on the tombstone of golf.

“Here lies the once Great Game of Golf, starved of challenges due to laziness” 

Look on the bright side, at least you got to play the game your way before you finally could not see the point of the game.

Melvyn

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2009, 12:10:05 PM »
Lou, I am really surprised that a guy like you is demanding that courses should be more accomodating to everybody. Things you learn. :)

Lou, instead of lamenting that Mike Keiser's policy was precluding you from having more than 18 holes with your friends, did you think about how the lack of care of their body by your friends was precluding you from enjoying their company? Let's face it, the round of golf is just for a weekend, if they were healthy enough to walk 36 holes, you will be able to enjoy their company for next decade or more. Perhaps insted of admonishing Keiser for being inflexible, you should commend him for giving your friends yet another reason to try to keep in shape.

Cliff, Bandon asking for a little extra time to accomomdate special circumstances is, to me, evidently fair. You are asking those people to do things that are out of ordinary. It is not unreasonable to ask for little extra time to make sure that those accomodations are taken care of without any hitches.

There are way too many out of shape people claiming disability. I see it all the time at malls where disabled parking spots are occupied full by people who have absolutely no problem walking around the cavernous space inside the mall. I see no problem with Bandon Dunes making sure that you are indeed disabled.

I am really surprised by the inconsistencies in attitudes (except for Melvyn! He may be wrong, but at least he is consistent in his philosophy!!!). Many of you criticize Tiger for his poor behavior and how it hurts the game of golf and then turn around sing the virtues of cart golf when it harms the game of golf FAR MORE than any golf club thrown by Tiger EVER WILL.

Cart golf destroys golf course architecture with its ugly ribbon of concrete and frequently compromises the placement and shape of greens. It steers designers/supers away from firm and fast conditions because drought tolerant grass like fescue do not do well with carts.

If you are a true fan of GCA and golf, I can't see how you can be so supportive of cart golf. Tolerate? Yes. Support? No.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 12:12:03 PM by Richard Choi »

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2009, 12:24:23 PM »
Lou, instead of lamenting that Mike Keiser's policy was precluding you from having more than 18 holes with your friends, did you think about how the lack of care of their body by your friends was precluding you from enjoying their company? Let's face it, the round of golf is just for a weekend, if they were healthy enough to walk 36 holes, you will be able to enjoy their company for next decade or more. Perhaps insted of admonishing Keiser for being inflexible, you should commend him for giving your friends yet another reason to try to keep in shape.
...

There are way too many out of shape people claiming disability. I see it all the time at malls where disabled parking spots are occupied full by people who have absolutely no problem walking around the cavernous space inside the mall. I see no problem with Bandon Dunes making sure that you are indeed disabled.

I agree totally. Fat people should know better.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2009, 12:44:41 PM »

There are way too many out of shape people claiming disability. I see it all the time at malls where disabled parking spots are occupied full by people who have absolutely no problem walking around the cavernous space inside the mall. I see no problem with Bandon Dunes making sure that you are indeed disabled.

Cart golf destroys golf course architecture with its ugly ribbon of concrete and frequently compromises the placement and shape of greens. It steers designers/supers away from firm and fast conditions because drought tolerant grass like fescue do not do well with carts.

If you are a true fan of GCA and golf, I can't see how you can be so supportive of cart golf. Tolerate? Yes. Support? No.


Rich - You are an honorary member of The Walking Golfers Society after that statement. Spot on.

Fact - If more people would walk instead of riding, they would be in better shape and, thus, could easily walk at places like Bandon when they visit.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2009, 12:52:48 PM »
Richard,

I apologize for not communicating more clearly.  I am all about choices, tolerance (hell, I even made the point of spending a little bit of time with you at the KP!  ;) ), private property rights, right to associate, etc.  The last thing I would want to do is admonish Mike Keiser, for whom I have great respect, though I know of him only through what people have said or written.  It is his property and he has every right to do as he pleases.  I just disagree with a relatively few of his decisions, none which preclude me from returning.  It is not about me Richard.  I've had a fantastic time in my two trips to Bandon.  I enjoy most everyone's company, and I do not depend on someone else's happiness to attain mine.  But I have seen several guys who would like to have played more there and couldn't for a variety of physical reasons (one who even has had a hand in some of the work there).

There are many reasons why people may be disabled.  Given your socialist orientations, I am surprised that you so selectively and strongly support personal or individual responsibility when it comes to physical fitness.  Where is the compassion for us struggling fatties?  Why would a guy who developed a bad back while travelling over a thousand miles to play the course be restricted to 18 holes because that is all that the walking will allow him?  Or the guy who catches a cold or the flu and doesn't dare to venture for even a single round because the exertion of walking might make it worse?  Must we all be Melvyn?

Not that I need to tell Mr. Kaiser anything, but how many rounds is he losing because of the no-riding policy?  I just met a retired guy going to OR on his honeymoon (he's there now) who is an avid golfer but due to bad legs and old age he can't walk much.  I asked him if he was going to play Bandon and he said he'd love to, but wouldn't risk ruining the rest of his trip if he pushes it.  There should be a way to maintain the spirit of Bandon and the condition of the courses without being so restrictive.  But as I noted before, Mr. Kaiser has every right to do as he chooses.  

Rob,

If Richard is now a member, I hereby tender my resignation.  ;)

I fully agree with your "Fact".  You should live in Dallas and I in OR.  Maybe I'd look more like Richard and you, perhaps, like me (God forbid).

When I lived in Columbus (OH), I gained 10-15 pounds in the winter which I then lost by early summer.  Carrying my bag while golfing was the only real change in my routine.
  
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 12:57:52 PM by Lou_Duran »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2009, 12:58:07 PM »
Lou, instead of lamenting that Mike Keiser's policy was precluding you from having more than 18 holes with your friends, did you think about how the lack of care of their body by your friends was precluding you from enjoying their company? Let's face it, the round of golf is just for a weekend, if they were healthy enough to walk 36 holes, you will be able to enjoy their company for next decade or more. Perhaps insted of admonishing Keiser for being inflexible, you should commend him for giving your friends yet another reason to try to keep in shape.
...

There are way too many out of shape people claiming disability. I see it all the time at malls where disabled parking spots are occupied full by people who have absolutely no problem walking around the cavernous space inside the mall. I see no problem with Bandon Dunes making sure that you are indeed disabled.

I agree totally. Fat people should know better.

Can we at least call them "calorically challenged?" ;D

One certain medical fact is that when the temperature is above 90 degrees, "calorically challenged" individuals definitely get more knee and back pain which is magically cured by a cart ;D
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2009, 01:10:18 PM »
Rob, I completely agree.

While I've thrown out a harsh comment or three on this thread, it's basically coming from a personal place.

I'm fat.

I can walk a course, but my weight puts pressure on my feet, ankles, etc., and I've had issues there that have, on occasion, prevented me from being able to walk 18 holes. I wasn't disabled. I didn't get a handicapped tag, and I wouldn't go to a doctor to get a fricking note to be allowed to go ride in a cart on a course that didn't allow it. I'm glad that there are courses out there that allow my fat ass to ride when I have the gall to want to play golf when my lazy worthless butt doesn't really deserve it. Sorry Melvyn. I know it's wrong, and do it anyway.

I believe that if a course or club wants to be walking only, I applaud them and feel like they're doing things the way that they oughta be, and if I want to play that course then I need to be in good enough shape to play there. I'm working on it. It's a work in progress. I understand that as an overweight guy folks can feel free to chime in on what a lazy piece of crap I am, and I guess I have to just take it. It's easy to see if someone's fat - it's harder to see if they're stupid or racist or some other attribute that I might want to comment on negatively. Of course, golf courses don't have rules regarding the play of idiots or racists. I want to be able to walk the course with my sons when they're ready to make that leap. Wish me luck.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2009, 01:45:44 PM »
Ryan,
I'd suggest your son or nephew.
Good luck otherwise
Edwin Watts is open when it rains,doesn't make you wait all day without getting paid-gives you a schedule
40 bucks cash after waiting 1-4 hours-participating in a 5 hour round-risking lyme's disease-nice enough for 14 year old-good luck with that workforce-and add in a ton of costs and headaches for sufficiently training, motivating, and maintaining that work force

At 40 bucks and as a more accepted practice, I'd guess that 4 hour waits would be a thing of the past. What if the clubhouse guaranteed house wages, like a waitstaff, in the event that earned wages did not exceed a minimum?

Of course, this is all somewhat theoretical. I know it's not happening....

One question I have asked friends but have never gotten an answer to is this, and maybe someone here can help. I am not old enough to have played prior to golf carts being fairly standard.

Today, the average golf cart rate is probably what, 15-20 bucks to a member who rides at his home course.
The average caddy, single bag, is upwards of 60 dollars, and high end places even in the 80-100 range.

This means that the premium for a caddie over a golf cart rental is around quadruple or quintuple the cost.

In the early days of golf carts, or even before golf carts, what was the cost of a caddie relative to a cart?  If a caddie got $5 for a loop, was a cart rental $1?  Or were the prices comparable?  How much would it have cost to get Danny Noonan for a loop, versus the golf carts that Lou threatened to replace the caddies with?


Melvyn Morrow

Re: Walking Only: What SHOULD the policy be?
« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2009, 01:50:31 PM »

Lou

If a player is not fit to play then he or she should not play.  If back problems, then a cart is the last thing he will need and for a cold or flu, with Swine Flu they should keep their distance from others, if only to be safe and considerate.

Its all well and good doing what you want to do, but we need to consider the bigger picture and the wellbeing of others including their right to their enjoyment. 

If not well, do not play golf, if disabled, then I agree carts should be available, but if just off colour then, shape up or sit out of the round. We all have a responsibility for our own health.  But don’t fall into the trap of thinking you know what is wrong with others, if someone is fat or thin, weak or strong, you have no idea what their health problems are and so should butt out.

So clearly, we are not all like Melvyn – because I do care about others, about the game and the right for ALL to enjoy golf. Richard may well be right in some of what he has pointed out, but responsibility stops with the individual, you want to screw up the enjoyment of your friends, then you are certainly not like Me.

Melvyn