Raynors Lions Mouth Green

[Lyne Morrison]

Folks, am interested to hear from anyone who has played Raynor’s Country Club of Charleston and specifically your opinion of the 16th hole, Lion's Mouth green.

I am intrigued - did you find it fascinating and fun to play as per Rans review? From what distance did you approach? What unfolded?

Sixteenth hole, 430 yards, Lion’s Mouth; The second most famous hole on the course, the Lion’s Mouth hole features a gaping seven foot deep circular bunker eating into the front of the elevated green complex. The green in turn horseshoes around the bunker and the effect is sensational and thoroughly original. A hole that Pete Dye, who was greatly influenced by Raynor, would be proud to call his own......Thanks to the punchbowl effect of the green's high sides and back, many options are available to the golfer on how best to get near certain hole location. Thus, the hole remains endlessly fascinating to play on a regular basis. The golfer only wishes that Raynor built more such green complexes.

With thanks, Lyne

[Brian Laurent]

Did Fox Chapel have a Lion's Mouth green that was removed at some point?

[Matt_Cohn]

Are those front areas pinnable?

[Bart Bradley]

Played CC of Charleston this Spring... It is a very good course..if I knew how it was rated, I would say it might be underrated  ...

I hit driver off the tee down the middle and had 155 or so left to the middle of the green...I hit a solid 8 iron right into the center bunker  ...pretty stupid, it turns out that there is a significant backstop behind the pin and I certainly should have taken more club as any ball landing behind the pin was likely to have come right back...I played the hole position shown here, but it certainly looked as though you could use the slope in the back to curve the ball from one side of the green to the other.

After visiting Ballyneal, last fall I started a thread about possible variations of Doak's E-green and mentioned that I might enjoy an "M" green (Tom Doak wasn't so sure it was a good idea (but what does he know   )...I would argue that the lion's mouth plays like 2 legs of the M...and it was great fun..

I wedged out of the bunker to about 10 feet and missed...UGH...

My playing partner (fellow GCAer) Ed Oden probably played the hole better than I, but I honestly can't remember ...I hope he chimes in!


Here is a picture which shows my approach position...the photo above does not show the flanking bunkers very well...I am not sure what I think of them...the simplicity of the single center bunker as a stand alone has a certain appeal to me...What do you all think?




Bart

[George_Bahto]

here is a 1925 version from the old mags

I think these green complexes he built in this style were some of the most interesting greens - not great holes but interesting and fun greens

we have one at Essex County CC in West Orange on a short par 4 with a great Lion's mouth bunker guarding the approach and hiding the center section of the green

at Fox Chapel there was a very good version but they took out the Lion's Mouth many years ago - hoping they will restore that hole as originally built one day

there weren't that many of these greens built by Raynor - none by Macdonald that I can think of and I can't place one Banks built ....  gee, maybe Raynor was pretty innovative after all   

[Bill_McBride]

The photo George posted from the 1920's looks like a deeper and more terrifying bunker.  Love the steps!

Rustic Canyon's 13th hole has a very similar bunker that really makes that par 5.

The original Lions Mouth is #13 at St Andrews' Old Course.  It sits maybe 30 yards out in front of the green so has a different impact on play of the hole.

[Phil McDade]

Here is a picture which shows my approach position...the photo above does not show the flanking bunkers very well...I am not sure what I think of them...the simplicity of the single center bunker as a stand alone has a certain appeal to me...What do you all think?




Bart

Bart:

I like the solitary nature of the bunker, with steep falloffs on each side.

I think this is a really neat green concept; with all of the Redans and NADERS and other similar versions, it's a wonder more courses don't have something like this.

Bill McBride:

Is there an argument for the Road Hole bunker at TOC's 17th being a version of the Lion's Mouth?

[Bill_McBride]

Here is a picture which shows my approach position...the photo above does not show the flanking bunkers very well...I am not sure what I think of them...the simplicity of the single center bunker as a stand alone has a certain appeal to me...What do you all think?




Bart

Bill McBride:

Is there an argument for the Road Hole bunker at TOC's 17th being a version of the Lion's Mouth?

Phil, I don't think so.  The Lion's Mouth at #13 TOC is very similar to the illustrated Lions Mouth, except it's 30-40 yards in front of the huge green. It directs shots to either side if they can't carry the bunker.

The Road Bunker is cut into a very shallow green with danger/disaster behind.  It warns the player to play short and right, which is the best way to make a par 4 at the Road Hole.  That strategy doesn't work at all on #13 TOC.  Short and right means a terrifying pitch over that deep and unnamed bunker at the right front of the green.  Different strategic requirement altogether.

[Ed Oden]

Lyne, my personal assessment of CC of C is that, taken as a whole, it is a good but not great course.  There are just a few too many average holes for it to be considered top notch.  That being said, there are a handful of truly unique features at CC of C that make the course special nonetheless.  Between the lion's mouth, the crossing fairway berms on #15 and the incredible elevated redan green on #11, there are things there that I haven't seen anywhere else.  So I would highly recommend CC of C for anyone interested in Raynor or GCA generally even though I think the quality of the course as a collective whole is a bit shy of the best.

Here is a photo of the lion's mouth taken from the right side of the fairway which shows the right greenside bunker...



...and here is a closeup of the green and center bunker...



No, the front flanks of the green are not pinnable.  One thing that I find interesting about this green is that, with the front flanks and the severe slopes in the back left and right portions, I don't think there are really that many pinnable spots despite its large size.

FYI, here is a link to more pictures of the course if anyone is interested:  

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/sets/72157616607134558/

Ed

PS - Bart, those guys in the group ahead of us certainly had all the bunkers covered!  Ha!

[George_Bahto]

To me the biggest fault in this style hole at CC of C is how shallow the green is, front to back, along the centerline of play.

I think at CC of C’s 14th the original berm of the Lion’s Mouth bunker was probably too high for the green.

The “ramps” are interesting but most of the time the pin is set in the center ..... and the hole is about 425!! Tough shot for the average or even good player.

The 14th at Essex County has a very deep green and if you play for the center of the green there is adequate room .... but again, that is a short par-4, raised green but blind green to the player.

From what I remember of the original hole at Fox Chapel, the Lion’s Mouth bunker was well forward of the green (great!!)  and the green was (and still is) extremely deep with a great ridge running thru the green. I would say the Fox Chapel hole was by far the best version of this genre.

[Todd Bell]

George, In your opinion:

What yardage would a well struck tee shot leave a golfer in 1925 on this hole?  Was the green complex designed to run the ball up on either side of the bunker?

[paul cowley]

If Pete Dye was as impressd by the Lions Mouth as previously expressed....then I think that the 9th at Harbor Town was a logical Dye interpretation/inspiration. Not a copy, just gut Pete stuff coming out.

[George_Bahto]

George, In your opinion:

What yardage would a well struck tee shot leave a golfer in 1925 on this hole? Was the green complex designed to run the ball up on either side of the bunker?


Todd:

I just looked at the original scorecard from my Ralph Kennady Macdonald/Raynor) collection, dated 4/22/1934 and the yardage was then 420 par-4 (itz about a dozen or so yards longer today)

OK, so let’s consider firm ground and an average golfer was just hitting the ball 175 in the air (only the big hitters were hitting 190-yds airborne at the time from what I’ve read) and he gets, probably, another 60-yds or so of roll (tops), at best the better golfer is looking at around 200 yds to the green .......
BUT - the problem on this hole is that players are rolling the ball up to and on the green (and more likely in this case, in that great bunker) so those two ramps were the play to get on the green.

So that sort of equals the way the hole plays today but today we’ve got the aerial game.

When I first went there I spoke to a few members and they told me the average play (no wind factor) is “long iron” into that green and so many of them often get in the bunker.

Long and middle iron into that green is really tough.

Ralph Kennady usually marked “x” s on his score cards indicating a grade for a good hole. He had 2 x’s on this hole as well as their crazy 11th reversed Redan.

[Kyle Henderson]

The bunker placement is a bit reminescent of a recurring Coore/Crenshaw design feature, as exemplified by the 8th green complex at Sand Hills.

View from the left side.


Obviously, the Raynor version features a raised green and less peripheral bunkering than the C/C version.

Are there any similarities aside from the greens wrapping around prominent central bunkers?

Are the dimenions of the greens markedly different? Due the contours allow for similar apporaches?

[Patrick_Mucci]

To me the biggest fault in this style hole at CC of C is how shallow the green is, front to back, along the centerline of play.

George,

In defense of Raynor, the backstop nature of the green provides "effective depth" from the playability aspect.

The shame is, like the Eden Green at NGLA and elsewhere, higher greenspeeds have reduced cupable areas.
I would imagine that the base of the slope is no longer cupable.

With the hole located behind the bunker, a precision approach is demanded.

It appears that approaches hit to the flanking ramps can use the banked rear of the green to get to a hole located in the center.
I like that challenge, it's quite unique today.

I think at CC of C’s 14th the original berm of the Lion’s Mouth bunker was probably too high for the green.

The “ramps” are interesting but most of the time the pin is set in the center ..... and the hole is about 425!! Tough shot for the average or even good player.

Does, or should, the average player be playing from 425 yards ?

I love the configuration of the green, it's surrounds and bunkers.
Can't wait to play it.

# 14 at ECCCE doesn't quite have the same feel as this since the golfer is approaching from well below the putting surface.

The 14th at Essex County has a very deep green and if you play for the center of the green there is adequate room .... but again, that is a short par-4, raised green but blind green to the player.

From what I remember of the original hole at Fox Chapel, the Lion’s Mouth bunker was well forward of the green (great!!)  and the green was (and still is) extremely deep with a great ridge running thru the green. I would say the Fox Chapel hole was by far the best version of this genre.

Does anybody know why it was removed ?

Does anybody know why it wasn't restored when Fox Chapel embarked on their project a few years ago ?

[Sean_A]

To me the biggest fault in this style hole at CC of C is how shallow the green is, front to back, along the centerline of play.

George,

In defense of Raynor, the backstop nature of the green provides "effective depth" from the playability aspect.

The shame is, like the Eden Green at NGLA and elsewhere, higher greenspeeds have reduced cupable areas.
I would imagine that the base of the slope is no longer cupable.

With the hole located behind the bunker, a precision approach is demanded.

It appears that approaches hit to the flanking ramps can use the banked rear of the green to get to a hole located in the center.
I like that challenge, it's quite unique today.

I think at CC of C’s 14th the original berm of the Lion’s Mouth bunker was probably too high for the green.

The “ramps” are interesting but most of the time the pin is set in the center ..... and the hole is about 425!! Tough shot for the average or even good player.

Does, or should, the average player be playing from 425 yards ?

I love the configuration of the green, it's surrounds and bunkers.
Can't wait to play it.

# 14 at ECCCE doesn't quite have the same feel as this since the golfer is approaching from well below the putting surface.

The 14th at Essex County has a very deep green and if you play for the center of the green there is adequate room .... but again, that is a short par-4, raised green but blind green to the player.

From what I remember of the original hole at Fox Chapel, the Lion’s Mouth bunker was well forward of the green (great!!)  and the green was (and still is) extremely deep with a great ridge running thru the green. I would say the Fox Chapel hole was by far the best version of this genre.

Does anybody know why it was removed ?

Does anybody know why it wasn't restored when Fox Chapel embarked on their project a few years ago ?

Patrick

I agree with you.  The hole looks tremendous to me and I don't mind a bit of controversy here and there. 

Question for folks, have you ever seen a version of this hole where one of the green wings drops lower and wraps partially around the bunker - thus creating a totally different hole location?

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

Question for folks, have you ever seen a version of this hole where one of the green wings drops lower and wraps partially around the bunker - thus creating a totally different hole location?

Ciao

Sean - Mike Nuzzo has something similar to this on the second hole at Wolf Point. It's a great green on a great hole. You can putt from high right to low left round the bunker - I tried it - but would be a scary shot to take on for real, because you would look a total arse if you putted into the bunker!

Adam

[Bill_McBride]

Question for folks, have you ever seen a version of this hole where one of the green wings drops lower and wraps partially around the bunker - thus creating a totally different hole location?

Ciao

Sean - Mike Nuzzo has something similar to this on the second hole at Wolf Point. It's a great green on a great hole. You can putt from high right to low left round the bunker - I tried it - but would be a scary shot to take on for real, because you would look a total arse if you putted into the bunker!

Adam

Adam, you could just do what my son David when we played there - hole your second shot from the fairway bunker!   

With Nuzzo and Mahaffey as witnesses!

[TEPaul]

I watched the concept of Rustic Canyon's 13th and Friars Head's #6 get discussed as they were developed as a concept and green but I do not recall at any time that Raynor's "Lion's Mouth" concept was mentioned even though both greens are very similar to Raynor's "Lion's Mouth" with the bunker eating right into the front middle of those greens.

[David Stamm]

Rustic Canyon's 13th hole has a very similar bunker that really makes that par 5.

 

That's the hole that came to mind when I saw this, Bill. The green at RC doesn't wrap around the bunker quite as much, but the concept looks very similiar.

[TEPaul]

DavidS:

I think I can very accurately attest to the fact that the bunker into the front of Rustic Canyon's 13th green was very much Geoff Shackelford's conception and suggestion with maybe some encouragement from Jim Wagner. I say that because I was out there for a couple of days before construction and that was one of the two things that was considered and discussed at great length. I think I recall that Gil may not have liked the idea that much at first and they were just looking for another opinion when he was out of town so they could gang up on him when he got back. As you know Gil is a pretty big guy so I guess they figured it would take quite a lot of ganging up on him to get there way. 

[Jerry Kluger]

Sean: The 8th at Sand Hills is not quite what you describe however,  the left side of the green is much lower than the right side but there is a bowl effect behind the green where a shot from the right side of the fairway can be bounce off the back of the green and down to the left side hole location.  There is also this type of green a Colorado Golf Club where the green wraps substantially around the bunker but I cannot remember if one side is higher than the other.   

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Essex County



As can be observed, this hole is significantly uphill

Colorado Golf Club

[Sean Leary]

It may not be exactly be a lions mouth but 14 at LACC North has similar qualities as well....

[Patrick_Mucci]

I watched the concept of Rustic Canyon's 13th and Friars Head's #6 get discussed as they were developed as a concept and green but I do not recall at any time that Raynor's "Lion's Mouth" concept was mentioned even though both greens are very similar to Raynor's "Lion's Mouth" with the bunker eating right into the front middle of those greens.

TEPaul,

# 6 at Friar's Head is a slight dog leg left.
I don't recall a "Lion's Mouth" bunker fronting that green.

Pete Dye had a version of the "Lion's Mouth" green and bunker configuration at Crooked Stick, a boomerang like green wrapped around a fronting bunker.

Wasn't this how the original 18th hole appeared/played at ANGC ?