[Mike_Young]

Chip,
And more importantly, back to Mike....lets hear about his thoughts on golf in Central Amerinca....are there any "must see" properties down there with sandy beach and sand dunes waiting for new development.
I like Central America and there is some nce property down that way....I am sure it will develop but it will be resort golf and I don't know if it will ever thrive for the sake of the game as much as for the amenity that it is.  Why....it rains 6 months then is complelely dry.....and hot and when the windy season comes it is over 40 mph.....

[Mike_Young]

Tony,

I was concerned about that but he drank and traveled with a couple of pastor's...do you think it was all all a facade?

Those dudes were really Methodist Ministers....one is at the largest Methodist church in the SE and is a Golfweek rater....

[Bill_McBride]

Bet it's less polarizing than the one in Mesquite.

That would be a negative, ghost rider. In the Atlanta area, Wolf Creek inspires pure love or hate more than any other course I can think of. No one straddles the fence - it's either great or terrible.

Mike, what do you think of Lane Creek now? It's long been a hidden gem for me, and the low-key vibe is always cool to me. I know the course has changed a good deal since opening day, but the new owner Butch Foust seems to really get how to make conditions consistent - something that plagued the course in the past. Just wanted to see how the changes over time sit with you (for the record, #3 was better back into the hillside).

Where is Lane Creek?

[Adam Russell]

Bill:
Oconee County, just south of Athens.
http://www.lanecreekgolfclub.com/

Mike:
I don't think it's a coincidence that as Lane Creek's turf improved, Reynolds has declined. To the point where it's a toss-up, which is silly considering it's $280 vs. $35. Butch knows turf. Hey, might make a good shirt...

BTW, good escape by the Fighting Butterflies on the flats tonight. But this UGA bashing - is it inferiority complex or newfound bravado from tugging on big brother's cape last year? 

[Randy Thompson]

To Mike and all,
Geopgraphy 101, Costa Rica, Honduras, and other countries south of the usa where Mike is working a lot, are Central american countires. correct me if I am wrong Mike but your one experience in South America with was in Brazil several moons ago, early in your career and the project was never completed under your direction or plans. Things went bad after two holes I beleive, no fault to you, I don´t think an architect dead or live could have pulled that one off considering all the circumstances. Brazil is very difficult to work in and in that time..on a scale to 1 to 100 it was probably a one but times have changed,,, they are improving, if you look hard you can come across some good two in halfs and there closing in on three! But man they can play football! Gonna be tough to beat in the world cup next year!

[Ben Sims]

Mike,

Seeing as how I'm staying in the Ben Hogan room tonight here in lovely Pacific Palisades, I feel entitled to ask a couple more question with a bit more bite on them.

1) What do you see happening to all of these talented and multifaceted professionals in the golf design and construction business that are currently feeling the strain of little to no work.  Are they more apt to turn to another profession, become renovators of the principles they served, go out on a limb with the next big thing, etc? 

2) Is there anybody that's relatively unproven in the market getting jobs right now? If not, how does the industry remain fresh?

3) What is happening to golf course architecture as we have seen it in the last 20 years?  Will the preceding two decades be remembered just like the 1915-1935 timeframe is remembered?  For its "golden age" luster that preceded a dark age of GCA from the mid 30's to early 80's?

4) What's your take on a term I'll now coin--Cowboy Golf?  I am talking about this vast movement west of great golf architecture.  Spearheaded by Sand Hills and catalyzed by Bandon Dunes, the manifest destiny of new golf courses west of the Mississippi to infiltrate the hallowed magazine rankings has been swift and severe.  It could end up being the most remembered aspect of the entire minimalism movement.

4) Is carolina style (whole chopped hog soaked in vinegar based sauce) better than memphis style (pulled pork served dry with sweet sauce and dry ribs) barbeque?  Is good brunswick stew a requirement for either style?

5) Does Tom Doak indeed have the largest calf muscles of any golf architect.  T-Train (I meant Jim Colton) already said yes.

[Mike Sweeney]

Tech looks pretty good in that first half!
yep....and Athens can't stand it....

Well we almost looked bad on that one!

Final question from me - what is the Mike Young resort course(s) in South America that replaces the Tom Fazio/Nicklaus course at the Four Seasons resort style course in the Caribbean. Thus, in the new era of scaling back, what is a reasonably priced resort area in South America that has a cool Mike Yourng course that is currently under the Rater radar?

[Bill_McBride]

"Is good brunswick stew a requirement for either style?"

Now you've done it, Ben, I need a Sprayberry's fix!   

(Yes, I am originally from Newnan, Georgia.)

[Mike_Young]

To Mike and all,
Geopgraphy 101, Costa Rica, Honduras, and other countries south of the usa where Mike is working a lot, are Central american countires. correct me if I am wrong Mike but your one experience in South America with was in Brazil several moons ago, early in your career and the project was never completed under your direction or plans. Things went bad after two holes I beleive, no fault to you, I don´t think an architect dead or live could have pulled that one off considering all the circumstances. Brazil is very difficult to work in and in that time..on a scale to 1 to 100 it was probably a one but times have changed,,, they are improving, if you look hard you can come across some good two in halfs and there closing in on three! But man they can play football! Gonna be tough to beat in the world cup next year!

Randy,
Did I call it South america somewhere....I have always called it Central or Latin america....I think...
As for Brazil....we did some stufff for Sao Paulo GC but they took the plans and we never went back....and then there was a master plan for Porte Allegre CC....and we did have a lady form there work in the office for two years then she went back and supposedly has been advertising as a golf architect.....I don't know which project you speak of....refresh me....I do know it was major inflation at the time....

[Mike_Young]

Ben,

1) What do you see happening to all of these talented and multifaceted professionals in the golf design and construction business that are currently feeling the strain of little to no work.  Are they more apt to turn to another profession, become renovators of the principles they served, go out on a limb with the next big thing, etc? 
I don't know....any business needs a market and right now there is not a market for golf courses.  My question for the future is whether the golf market will be based on golf courses that need to justify themselves or act as an amenity to a resort or development.  I sense developers will begin to look for golf products  that can make it on their own without needing lot sale subsidies....for the last twenty years we have seen all these large design fees but in reality they were more of a marketing fee for a signature combined with a design fee. 
I think those that have been in it for 20 years or more should be able to scrounge and get by.....but they will be small shops...many of the associates that have been with these larger shops will be gone....I would not be afraid to predict that 80% percent of the people( associates and principals) will not be in it within 3 years( at least not on a fulltime basis) IMHO

2) Is there anybody that's relatively unproven in the market getting jobs right now? If not, how does the industry remain fresh?

I asked myself that a few times....I don't think guys coming out of school are getting jobs now..even in construction and I hear that the turfgrass schools are having trouble placing guys with maintenance jobs....
when it comes back it will be those that survived this period and they will hire a fresh group.....BUT I also wonder sometimes if Golf architecture can even be called a profession?  Is it large enough to even warrant?  How many of the old guys and guys now actually do it without either a TFB( Trust Fund Baby) subsidy, a wife with a good job, or either another occupation such as rental properties or a golf course or something.....You can hype it, promote it, and blow it up into some glorious job but in the end....it's all about marketing....it has always been about selling ablitiy....golfers on the whole could care less about how you got to the finished product....they just want a course that is acceptable to them....AND in the States the gullibility factor is huge....they are told what they should like....

3) What is happening to golf course architecture as we have seen it in the last 20 years?  Will the preceding two decades be remembered just like the 1915-1935 timeframe is remembered?  For its "golden age" luster that preceded a dark age of GCA from the mid 30's to early 80's?
I don't know.  From the little I know of the Golden Age..it seems that many of the golfers actually played the game and enjoyed it....today i think there is a large portion of people that play golf but are not golfers....they feel the need to participate for business reasons etc and for lifestyle...therefore some of the goofy shit we have out there as golf courses...all in the name of outdoing the last course built down the road....
What we have to accept now is that not every "good" course we see is going to remain...some have to close.....you cannot make them work....and this is going to affect lot values and over all devlopment structures much more than the Golden Age closing did....IMHO

4) What's your take on a term I'll now coin--Cowboy Golf?  I am talking about this vast movement west of great golf architecture.  Spearheaded by Sand Hills and catalyzed by Bandon Dunes, the manifest destiny of new golf courses west of the Mississippi to infiltrate the hallowed magazine rankings has been swift and severe.  It could end up being the most remembered aspect of the entire minimalism movement.
I like that stuff....does it all make money or justify existence..I don't know.....I do know from working with enough developers that there are guys who have the money to build golf developments as toys and they love playing in that "sandbox"....even to the tune of losing a few million a year for 5-10 years...but what happens when they get tired of the sandbox and no one wants it like they did....
Remember the ratings are not there for the benefit of the course...they are there for the benefit of the magazines ....i want to see how ratings fare when there are not enough courses built in a year to rate for all the spots that are open....

4) Is carolina style (whole chopped hog soaked in vinegar based sauce) better than memphis style (pulled pork served dry with sweet sauce and dry ribs) barbeque?  Is good brunswick stew a requirement for either style?
That's a tough one....I think I would prefer the carolina style as a small appetizer before a main corse of mephis style dry rub....and then you could have a mixture for dessert with a little carolina sweet sauce on it.....

5) Does Tom Doak indeed have the largest calf muscles of any golf architect.  T-Train (I meant Jim Colton) already said yes.
I have heard that but I really don't know the answer.....I can say that often when those body builder types "oil up" for events or before a round of golf AND they have on plaid bermuda shorts....the calves can give the impression of being huge....good question...

[Mike_Young]

Mike Sweeney,

Final question from me - what is the Mike Young resort course(s) in South America that replaces the Tom Fazio/Nicklaus course at the Four Seasons resort style course in the Caribbean. Thus, in the new era of scaling back, what is a reasonably priced resort area in South America that has a cool Mike Yourng course that is currently under the Rater radar?
Hey...you trying to get me in trouble?.....first..I am not out to replace anybody's course....I hope some of my stuff get recognized because it means I can/could try to charge a little more but all I am really after is to give a good product that can justify itself and allow me to keep working....I think all of us in the business just want to make a profit....and keep going....but try www.haciendapinilla.com  we just opened the JW Marriott there....
Also I just this minute read where Joe biden's brother is now involved in a costa rica project and has a bunch of quotes where he is best /long lost friends with Jackie Nicklaus and together they are doing a new course there that will be environmentally sensitive...now that might catch  on..says his first stop each day is the JN offices...

[Randy Thompson]

Mike,
No you have not refered to these countries as South America but you have been asked several questions refering to South America, like Mike´s last question in reference to your recent Costa Rica project and someone asked if you were to live in south america where would it be. and you stated you liked where you live but Nicaraga was nice with good people ect. Maybe I am being too detailed, like some people with spelling, loved your answer about the spelling...know...!!! About ten years ago I dated for about ten months the lady that worked in your office and I understand she baby sat your kids a couple of times. That has been my claim to Fame, sometimes when I am around people who like to name drop, and they say I met Tiger Woods or whatever, I respond, oh yeah, well I dated Mike Young´s baby sitter!! Anyways, the project I was refering to is Belem Novo. As I understand you had a contract there, put a shaper there and after six months of constant breeakdowns with an antique machine and two holes rough shaped, everybody packed up and headed back home and the club pushed up some dirt for greens for seven holes and cut a hole and placed a flag. Several years latter, we then got hired by a gentleman, that bought the spa that was adjoing the property. We did a land plan with an american and put nine holes around the spa and also redid the other nine, eliminating everything that was previously built, a new routing and houses incorporated throughout. It was a difficult project and there were constant problems between the developer and the exsisting 100 members. The Spa property was a swamp and lots were added and added and the final product was lakes with a golf course. Anyways despite all the problems some things came out all right and is currently rated number nine in Brazil. If you get a copy of the Braziian Federation Guide for golf courses in Brazil, Belem Novo is listed and the accredited architect is Mike Young. Such is Brazil, I also did a masrter routing change plan for Porte Allegre, I think they have a entire file cabinet full of them, but do nothing.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Mike,

I'm interested to know the challenges associated with building The Island in Plaquemine. Specifically, how building on lowland between two strips of water dictated the routing decisions.

Do you think hybrid grass types will evolve to the point where the "bermuda" states will have a top course? Do you think this will happen in our lifetime? I'm basically asking if I need to move.

Thanks,
Wyatt

[Anthony Gray]

  Mike just a couple more.

  1 What one of your courses would be the best for a Grudge Match?

  2 The seat next to you is always the most desirable at GCA get togethers. You have even been regurgitated on. What is the bigger Dixie Cup faux pas....Throwing up on someone or telling people you have a trip planned to New Hampshire so you can legally marry your boyfriend?

  3 David M Kidd has been accused of building courses that favor the driver because that is his favorite club. Tom Doak the putter. Jack the left to right hitter. What is your favorite club and normal ball flight and how does it influence your designs?

  4 You have had financial success in areas other than course design........Club ownership, Outdoor lifestyle store and DD Bar-B-Que. Are you a minority or majority owner of The Cheetah?

  5 As you no I have embraced the latin culture having married a dominicana. How have your experiences with the latin cultures enriched your family?

  6 If one of your courses makes the top 100, can I tell people I no you?

  7 If you designed a course just for weomen, how would it be different that what you are doing now?

  8 I once tore an ACL having sex, Have you ever been injured on the job?


   Anthony



 

[Steve Kline]

"What is the best piece of golf course design advice Charlie ever gave you?

You know charlie is actually pretty interested in this stuff.  As to advise.....he feels you should let the average golfer play...distance is not that much of a factor and be able to adjust fairway widths and green difficulties w/o building them into something that cannot be changed....he has always said that if you gave Tiger the weakest drive of any player on tour and gave that player Tiger's drive ...Tiger would still beat him due to short game and putting...I think he's right....so let people play....don't make it so hard they don't enjoy such..."

So everyone would play from Tiger's drive? 

I know he meant weakest in length but I as thinking in terms of overl driving.

[Steve Kline]

"have a light brown "under armor Type" brief that keeps one from chafing..(the color is called "fudge")  while on site visits and we had Gold Bond powder create a product we labeled Fa Tass Nut Powder."

Classic! I never play golf without my Gold Bond.

[Mike_Young]

Mike,
No you have not refered to these countries as South America but you have been asked several questions refering to South America, like Mike´s last question in reference to your recent Costa Rica project and someone asked if you were to live in south america where would it be. and you stated you liked where you live but Nicaraga was nice with good people ect. Maybe I am being too detailed, like some people with spelling, loved your answer about the spelling...know...!!! About ten years ago I dated for about ten months the lady that worked in your office and I understand she baby sat your kids a couple of times. That has been my claim to Fame, sometimes when I am around people who like to name drop, and they say I met Tiger Woods or whatever, I respond, oh yeah, well I dated Mike Young´s baby sitter!! Anyways, the project I was refering to is Belem Novo. As I understand you had a contract there, put a shaper there and after six months of constant breeakdowns with an antique machine and two holes rough shaped, everybody packed up and headed back home and the club pushed up some dirt for greens for seven holes and cut a hole and placed a flag. Several years latter, we then got hired by a gentleman, that bought the spa that was adjoing the property. We did a land plan with an american and put nine holes around the spa and also redid the other nine, eliminating everything that was previously built, a new routing and houses incorporated throughout. It was a difficult project and there were constant problems between the developer and the exsisting 100 members. The Spa property was a swamp and lots were added and added and the final product was lakes with a golf course. Anyways despite all the problems some things came out all right and is currently rated number nine in Brazil. If you get a copy of the Braziian Federation Guide for golf courses in Brazil, Belem Novo is listed and the accredited architect is Mike Young. Such is Brazil, I also did a masrter routing change plan for Porte Allegre, I think they have a entire file cabinet full of them, but do nothing.

Randy,
I remember that place...the poor shaper we left there went crazy I think....I never knew they did anything..but if you designed it..it should have your name not mine.....
Hey look if you got to drop my name as re to babydsitting....we need to work on your connections
Best of luck down there....
Mike

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

I'm interested to know the challenges associated with building The Island in Plaquemine. Specifically, how building on lowland between two strips of water dictated the routing decisions.

Do you think hybrid grass types will evolve to the point where the "bermuda" states will have a top course? Do you think this will happen in our lifetime? I'm basically asking if I need to move.

Thanks,
Wyatt

Wyatt,
That was a challenging place....in many ways....from taking the test to do work in La and forward from there....La is everything you ever here it is...
There was no slope on the property and al of the area in between was fill....you could dig 15 feet down and find cut cypress stumps....it took many lakes in order to create the fill and fall necessary to build the course which dictated the routing...it is a very penal golf course...

Do you think hybrid grass types will evolve to the point where the "bermuda" states will have a top course? Do you think this will happen in our lifetime? I'm basically asking if I need to move.
I think they could....but it will be a difficult climb.....

[Bill_McBride]

"have a light brown "under armor Type" brief that keeps one from chafing..(the color is called "fudge")  while on site visits and we had Gold Bond powder create a product we labeled Fa Tass Nut Powder."

Classic! I never play golf without my Gold Bond.

"Classic! I never play golf without my Gold Bond."

Before or after?

 

[RJ_Daley]

Shirley, this thread can go a couple more days and pages! Just splainin' things to Anthony could take up that much time and space.

[Mike_Young]

 1 What one of your courses would be the best for a Grudge Match?

Beau Pre in Natchez, Miss..  I think we are talking of a Dixie cup there next year....

 2 The seat next to you is always the most desirable at GCA get togethers. You have even been regurgitated on. What is the bigger Dixie Cup faux pas....Throwing up on someone or telling people you have a trip planned to New Hampshire so you can legally marry your boyfriend?  
You know it is really hard to beat a guy throwing up on you after he has had those crab cakes....all of those little moist nuggets of white crab meat make me start craving a big ole chunk of coconut cake......I did not meet the guy that was headed to NH to marry his boyfriend but I do think they were in the room next to me that night....Was he the guy I saw playing with you that had the sores on his lip?  I saw where you had hit a shot up about 2 feet from the hole and he made a 12 foot downhill birdie....I said great putt and he said "aw shucks it is much easier when your partner is stiff"  is that the guy?

 3 David M Kidd has been accused of building courses that favor the driver because that is his favorite club. Tom Doak the putter. Jack the left to right hitter. What is your favorite club and normal ball flight and how does it influence your designs?
I am a left handed golfer.....I don't have a favorite club.....and my ball flight varies....and that has influenced my designs greatly....

 4 You have had financial success in areas other than course design........Club ownership, Outdoor lifestyle store and DD Bar-B-Que. Are you a minority or majority owner of The Cheetah?
I don't know if success is the right word....have had fun....I have been to one of those strip clubs before....they want you to pay them for a job...aint no way....I don't drink so they could not fool me.......did you pay for one of those jobs....

 5 As you no I have embraced the latin culture having married a dominicana. How have your experiences with the latin cultures enriched your family?   my family really likes Central america and the people....but if i catch my daughters or wife embracing one of them then we might have a little discussion...

  6 If one of your courses makes the top 100, can I tell people I no you?  you can tell anyone you no me whenever you wish....it would be sort of like me going to a dental convention after drinking grape juice and eating corn on the cobb and telling people you are my dentist and you just cleaned my teeth....they would be impressed....

 7 If you designed a course just for weomen, how would it be different that what you are doing now?
I would put many small undulations in the cart paths and fairways and install vibrating seats in the golf carts....other than that I would keep them about the same.....oh..and for the more manly women I would have Subaru golf carts....


 8 I once tore an ACL having sex, Have you ever been injured on the job?
Man that s worse than when Larry David got the hair caught in his throat on Curb Your Enthusiasm....
I once got frostbite from one of those urinals in a fancy restaurant where they put ice in them ...and then I was with a Georgia grad one day and he really got messed up by one of those ParAide ball washers.....we had to call the ambulance and a welder....but that's about it....

[Garland Bayley]

Mike,

Do you grow camellias?

[Garland Bayley]

Mike,

Seeing as how I'm staying in the Ben Hogan room tonight here in lovely Pacific Palisades, I feel entitled to ask a couple more question with a bit more bite on them.

1) What do you see happening to all of these talented and multifaceted professionals ...

Ben,

You're on your honeymoon for gosh sakes, put a lid on it!

[Steve Kline]

"have a light brown "under armor Type" brief that keeps one from chafing..(the color is called "fudge")  while on site visits and we had Gold Bond powder create a product we labeled Fa Tass Nut Powder."

Classic! I never play golf without my Gold Bond.

"Classic! I never play golf without my Gold Bond."

Before or after?



 

Both!!!

[Joe Hancock]

OK, now that I've slowed down on the fits of laughter, I can honestly say I'm pissed that I agreed to be the next guy after Young.

Nice stories, Mike... with you telling them, they have a better than average chance of being true.

Joe

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