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Scott Warren

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I have been working on a theory on why Golden Age Architects and those operating today have achieved a higher reputation than those who plied the trade between the Great Depression and the 1980s that I would like to share, unfinished as it is, in the hope some of the experts here can throw some rocks at it and see if it falls over.

The Golden Age Designers had a wave of enthusiasm and the attached wallets of very wealthy people to drive new designs along. Perhaps most crucially, they had access to some of the best land in the world close to growing population centres upon which to build golf courses and, lastly, much less riguorous – if any – environmental responsibilities or restrictions.

In short, they had the pure opportunity to let the land speak and build holes as the land demanded they be built. Par-72-with-two-returning-nine-hole-loop syndrome was not yet set in many minds as not just desirable, but perhaps not-negotiable, and the ideas from the early courses that provided the building blocks of golf course architecture were still fresh and, to many golfers, unseen.

Then comes the stockmarket crash and the ensuing restrictions on expenditure. Much of the good land is gone by this stage, either used already for golf or else developed for residential or commercial use.

My theory is that the designs we commonly associate from these decades were forced significantly by the land available for golf course construction. Where new, previously uninhabited, areas gave way to urban sprawl, the best land was not easily snapped up by golf course developers.

Tentatively, I put it that if transplanted into the 1940s or 50s Colt, MacKenzie or Doak would not have found the critical acclaim they and their creations enjoy.

With many great golf courses already operating from the Golden Age, the upper echelons had their playgrounds, and as far as I can see, a great deal of the courses being built were for the ordinary people. As such, they were basic designs that could be built cheaply on whatever land was spared for the purpose.

Also, while Dark Age designers are often accused of moving too much dirt "because they could", I propose that it was necessity as much as desire that saw the earth transformed so greatly.

Fast forward to today and the world is a very different beast. While many of the restrictions faced in the 1940s and 50s remain - and on the issue of environment are undoubtedly much more major, the possibilities are also greater - chief among them the greater ease and affordability of long distance travel.

The Bandon courses, Ballyneal and Sand Hills, Barnbougle Dunes, Cape Kidnappers and Kauri Cliffs, possibly even Machrihanish Dunes, and Castle Stuart could not have been built in any age prior to the one we live in.

I think it is significant that most great new courses of the past decade are located in far-flung locations.

Of course the land was there since before golf became popular, but the concept of building courses so far from a large population centres was unthinkable.

While some of those courses saw their development restricted in many ways like never before (Machrihanish Dunes being a good case in point) the ability for a mass market of golfers to travel long distances quickly and cheaply, while earning salaries that allow $200 and $300 green fees to be justified, made these previously untenable projects possible.

Never before have so many had so much to spend on non-essentials.

It is often said in sports that “the greats would have been great in any era”. Indeed, it is true of most fields of human endeavour, and I don’t suggest the architects who have shone in the two Golden Ages owe their success and acclaim to circumstance, there were/are enough dud golf courses built before 1930 and being built now to confirm that, but no other times have allowed such freedom for golf course architects, albeit in very different ways.

As I said, I feel my theory still has some way to come, and – positive or negative – I would be interested to hear what you think of it.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 01:39:42 PM by Scott Warren »

Dan King

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Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2009, 01:19:59 PM »
I've also had a theory, I call the "new bells and whistles theory."

During the Golden Age, the architects didn't have much in the way of mechanization, so courses were done with a minimum of earth moving. It was too expensive to move so much dirt. After the Depression and WWII, especially in America, it became much more common to do things with machines. Often times, given something new to use, there is the urge to overuse the new tool. I've worked in technology most of my life and almost always when some new tool comes out most engineers will try and find as many possible ways to use the new tool. Sometimes it is used better, sometimes it was silly to use the new tool when the old tool worked perfectly well.

In the post WWII-era architects overusing their new tools, moving dirt, not because it was called for, but because they had the tools to do it and they were showing off what they could do.

It took a while, but now we are to an era where the tools are used smartly, not just because they exist. Rather than showing off that they are using new tools, they are used to make the golf course look more natural.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
Americans are less mystical about what produced their inland or meadow courses; they are the product of the bulldozer, rotary ploughs, mowers, sprinkler systems and alarmingly generous wads of folding money.
 --Alistair Cooke (Forward to The World Atlas of Golf)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 12:52:35 AM by Dan King »

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2009, 01:42:44 PM »
I had an additional thought as I was up the street getting dinner that  have added that sort of addresses that point, Dan, but I agree with your point about technology being overused.

I work in the print media and have noticed the same thing in my industry as the various page design and photo editing softwares have been upgraded with new features. Guilty as charged myself, I will admit!

Jack Vance

Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2009, 01:45:53 PM »
All I know is that after playing an old course, I am impressed how the natural lay of the land was used. No earth moving...just the best of nature. Played Garden City GC last month...fantastic, unique!! Next day...The Bridges in Bridgehampton...same new deal...been there and played that feel many times before...another Rees Jones copy!

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2009, 02:13:25 PM »
Scott - I think 'art' got a bad name after the war. It was seen as decadent. And so all you had left was the 'craft' - functional enough, yes, but ultimately unsatisfying, even to Americans :).

It took 4 decades or so before the balance returned, and was appreciated.

It took the baby boomers of all people to put it into perspective...

Peter


Garland Bayley

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Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2009, 02:45:37 PM »
My theory is that the depression knocked out all the small quantity course builders and left only bigger operators in business.
My theory predicts that the great recession we are going through will leave the likes of Fazio, Jones, and Nicklaus in business after it is over.

Personally, I can't buy the land theory. There is a great variability in land and growth just brings you in closer proximity to previously unused great land. Now, if you had said that travel for golf had become more common and fueled the building of a disproportionate amount of courses in Florida, then I would agree the lack of great land may have been a factor.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2009, 08:00:27 PM »
Scott,

I enjoyed reading your theory.

At a very high level - I think the designs from the Great Depression through the 1980s were a representation of the incredibly fast evolution of technology, and the changing of society from "slow pace" to "fast pace".

In the "Golden Age" it took a long time for a course to be constructed. With the advent of machinery combined with the continual advancement in technology and the ability to create virtually any product faster, including golf courses, most of the "thoughtfulness" that can only occur while looking at a piece of land over time was done away with.

It is likely that Sand Hills was the first return to "natural" architecture because of Coore and the amount of time he spent on the spectacular site that C&C had a chance to work with.

The advent of "golf communities" also contributed to shoddy and mass marketed designs that were the equivalent to the creation of "tang".

I think the shift in the speed of society, from slow to fast, and everything that changed with it, had a very negative impact on golf course design for decades.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2009, 08:14:11 PM »
Rob,

The minimalists designs of the golden age took a long time to be built?
Do you have a reference stating such?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2009, 10:23:25 PM »
Many Golden Age courses of the 1920s have evolved greatly over the years and many times included large modifications early in their existances.  (Merion, Augusta, PVGC, Oakmont, Pinehurst, Garden City...)  Before million $ irrigation systems, cart paths and expectations of perfect conditions, it was a lot more practical to rebuild a number of holes, or recontour a bunch of greens, while today it would practically shut you down for a year and the construction costs and sunk costs would be much higher.  So the affordability of modification is a factor.

What highly regarded course of the last dozen years has had many changes/improvements since it opened, and how many of those were overseen by new designers?

Ok Pete Dye has tinkered a good bit with some of his courses and Jack has retooled Muirfield Village and Greg Normal fooled around with his and Pete's design at the Medalist but these examples are rare.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2009, 10:43:45 PM »
Garland,

The articles that have been circulating on Lahinch, Cruden Bay, Rosapenna, etc. along with what I have read about courses like NGLA and Cypress Point would lead me to believe that golden age architects took more time to evaluate the land on which they were constructing courses, while also being willing to tweak those designs after they were finished - sometimes over the course of many years, and in the case of courses in GBI, through different archies.

If the land did not give them what they wanted, there was not a lot that they could do about it so they needed to work with the canvas they had, not completely reconstruct it by using equipment.

Thus, creating a course in the golden age took some thought and time.

Of course, this may have only been true of some archies, like it is today. Ross is responsible for so many courses it is ridiculous to believe that he was able to spend time onsite at all of them.

I think that "thought" is the key attribute that was missing from golf course construction for decades.


David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2009, 11:04:26 PM »
Does the time spent on a project mean anything if the talent working on it is mediocre to begin with? It took 15 years from city approval to completed course for Carlsbad's municipal course, The Crossings at Carlsbad, and it's one of the biggest pieces of contrived garbage I've ever seen. 
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2009, 11:14:09 PM »
I do not agree that available land was worse in the 40's - 80's.  There have been a lot of courses built on terrific land in the last 15 years.

My theory is more in line with Dan's.  Modern minimalists are correct - decent land makes for a much more interesting playing surface than artificially created features.  Golden age architects did not screw up the land because they did not have the equipment or the budget.

I think golden age architects writings give a pretty good clue that this view is correct (probably Mackenzie and Tillinghast).  I recall many passages expressing excitement about improved earthmoving techniques.  The Golden Age architects would have no doubt used them extensively.  My guess is that the resulting product would have been inferior to what was produced without the technology.

In addition WWII and its aftermath was an era when the power of science led to remarkable innovation and accomplishment.  I think golf course construction also became more of a science than an art in this time period.  

Behr's notion of golf as a sport similar to hunting disappeared in favor of the view of a golf course as a fair test of execution rather than an adventure through wilderness.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2009, 03:27:42 AM »
If the land did not give them what they wanted, there was not a lot that they could do about it so they needed to work with the canvas they had, not completely reconstruct it by using equipment.

I would have agreed until I played canterbury (UK). Some of the greensites saw Colt move a hue amount of dirt. I feel, but acannot be sure, than greensites like the 11th, 13th and 4th at West Sussex involved a decent amount of earthmoving by Hotchkin, Campbell and Co.

Many Golden Age courses of the 1920s have evolved greatly over the years and many times included large modifications early in their existances... today it would practically shut you down for a year and the construction costs and sunk costs would be much higher.  

Great point.

I do not agree that available land was worse in the 40's - 80's.  There have been a lot of courses built on terrific land in the last 15 years.

Without intending to be rude, did you read my entire post?

Of the land that has been turned into a great golf course in the past 15 years, let's say World Top 100, there aren't many located within a population centre that would have sustained them in any decade before the 90s. Most built since 1994 (your 15-year window) still aren't near, and don't rely on, a local population. They depend on people taking golf trips to visit them. cancel out affordable air travel and large disposable incomes and Bandon, Barnbougle etc go broke pretty quickly.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 03:33:28 AM by Scott Warren »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2009, 05:11:01 AM »
I have been working on a theory on why Golden Age Architects and those operating today have achieved a higher reputation than those who plied the trade between the Great Depression and the 1980s that I would like to share, unfinished as it is, in the hope some of the experts here can throw some rocks at it and see if it falls over.

The Golden Age Designers had a wave of enthusiasm and the attached wallets of very wealthy people to drive new designs along. Perhaps most crucially, they had access to some of the best land in the world close to growing population centres upon which to build golf courses and, lastly, much less riguorous – if any – environmental responsibilities or restrictions.

In short, they had the pure opportunity to let the land speak and build holes as the land demanded they be built. Par-72-with-two-returning-nine-hole-loop syndrome was not yet set in many minds as not just desirable, but perhaps not-negotiable, and the ideas from the early courses that provided the building blocks of golf course architecture were still fresh and, to many golfers, unseen.

Then comes the stockmarket crash and the ensuing restrictions on expenditure. Much of the good land is gone by this stage, either used already for golf or else developed for residential or commercial use.

My theory is that the designs we commonly associate from these decades were forced significantly by the land available for golf course construction. Where new, previously uninhabited, areas gave way to urban sprawl, the best land was not easily snapped up by golf course developers.

Tentatively, I put it that if transplanted into the 1940s or 50s Colt, MacKenzie or Doak would not have found the critical acclaim they and their creations enjoy.

With many great golf courses already operating from the Golden Age, the upper echelons had their playgrounds, and as far as I can see, a great deal of the courses being built were for the ordinary people. As such, they were basic designs that could be built cheaply on whatever land was spared for the purpose.

Also, while Dark Age designers are often accused of moving too much dirt "because they could", I propose that it was necessity as much as desire that saw the earth transformed so greatly.

Fast forward to today and the world is a very different beast. While many of the restrictions faced in the 1940s and 50s remain - and on the issue of environment are undoubtedly much more major, the possibilities are also greater - chief among them the greater ease and affordability of long distance travel.

The Bandon courses, Ballyneal and Sand Hills, Barnbougle Dunes, Cape Kidnappers and Kauri Cliffs, possibly even Machrihanish Dunes, and Castle Stuart could not have been built in any age prior to the one we live in.

I think it is significant that most great new courses of the past decade are located in far-flung locations.

Of course the land was there since before golf became popular, but the concept of building courses so far from a large population centres was unthinkable.

While some of those courses saw their development restricted in many ways like never before (Machrihanish Dunes being a good case in point) the ability for a mass market of golfers to travel long distances quickly and cheaply, while earning salaries that allow $200 and $300 green fees to be justified, made these previously untenable projects possible.

Never before have so many had so much to spend on non-essentials.

It is often said in sports that “the greats would have been great in any era”. Indeed, it is true of most fields of human endeavour, and I don’t suggest the architects who have shone in the two Golden Ages owe their success and acclaim to circumstance, there were/are enough dud golf courses built before 1930 and being built now to confirm that, but no other times have allowed such freedom for golf course architects, albeit in very different ways.

As I said, I feel my theory still has some way to come, and – positive or negative – I would be interested to hear what you think of it.


Scott

Why wouldn't the theoretical 40s and 50s work of Colt and Dr Mac be critically acclaimed?

To add to your theory I would say that the moving of land really started with Colt's era (most specifically for green sites and sometimes bunkering) because of this ability, sporty golf which included blind shots started to take a hit - thus the beginnings of what B Crosby calls "equitable golf".  I think we also see the beginning of repeated strategies that because of their "created" nature they began to be recognizable and I am not really hitting on the obvious guys like Macdonald and Raynor.  For instance, after playing a handful of Colt or Ross courses one can see patterns, but that isn't surprising because they built a load of courses and there is only so much out there in terms of strategies to use. It also is no accident that this period also coincided with the "conversations" through magazines etc about the nature of good golf holes and what elements make them good.  To illustrate the point, how many new ideas have been created and used extensively in recent years?  In the main, they involve the use of water, a bit of a shift from classic design ideas sometimes for practical purposes, sometimes for regulatory purposes and sometimes for philosophical shifts.  Finally, I think the customer base was looking for something different after the Golden Age and archies were only too happy to oblige.  Its not so different from 100, 110 or 120 years ago.  Some ideas were tried (Victorian architecture, blind shots, use of streams, bunker patterns etc) and some of these ideas were essentially rejected over time.  The verdict is still out on much 40s and 50s architecture and I wouldn't be surprised if a movement developed to preserve and restore some of this era's original architecture.   

I do agree to a certain extent that some modern greats are using a model of national memberships rather than relying on locals for subscription, but that model isn't new.  I think several classic greats relied on weekend travelers to use the course.  Of course, now we talk in terms of hours on a plane whereas back in the old days they talked about hours on a train.  Same idea, different scale. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2009, 10:25:12 AM »
Hoping not to sound too much like a Republican, I think some of the difference has to do with money and with competition.

In the 1950's and 1960's there were only two or three big-name architects you could go to if you wanted to create a great course, so the business evolved as they decided it should.  One of them, Trent Jones, was into efficiency and mass production on a worldwide scale; the other, Dick Wilson, took the opposite tack and was very site-oriented, but was limited to a handful of jobs per year as a result.  And both were more or less modernists.

In the 1920's and in the last decade there was just so much more opportunity for young architects to go out and show another way, and let the market decide if they were right.  It's inevitable that there would be more styles and that some clients would be willing to pay more for "art".

I hope it was more than that ... because clearly, the era of opportunity is going to be curtailed for a while, and it will be that much harder for someone new and different to make their mark.  Then again, it won't take so many votes to win "Best New" if there are only ten courses competing for the title.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 10:27:22 AM by Tom_Doak »

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2009, 04:32:00 PM »

I do not agree that available land was worse in the 40's - 80's.  There have been a lot of courses built on terrific land in the last 15 years.

Without intending to be rude, did you read my entire post?

Of the land that has been turned into a great golf course in the past 15 years, let's say World Top 100, there aren't many located within a population centre that would have sustained them in any decade before the 90s. Most built since 1994 (your 15-year window) still aren't near, and don't rely on, a local population. They depend on people taking golf trips to visit them. cancel out affordable air travel and large disposable incomes and Bandon, Barnbougle etc go broke pretty quickly.

Scott:

Fair point.  I was multitasking.  I have, however, seen several courses from the dark ages in which good land was bulldozed to remove any interesting playing features.

A course in Minneapolis - Bunker Hills features some of the most ideal land one could find for a course - gentle hills, sand based soil, scrub pines.  The course is nearly identical to courses found all over the country from the mid 60's (Randolph N in Tucson, Jester Park in Des Moines, Spencer CC, Papago in Phoenix).  The interesting bits of land were bulldozed away.  A 3rd 9 added in the 90;s shows how much promise the land had, and some amazing holes were created, but most of them turned out mediocre.

In addition, i am not sure about your theory that the recent great courses being largely destination courses.  While that is true in many cases.  Many other notable courses are in spots that probably could have sustained courses long ago or are at least largely dependent on local play rather than the destination golfer:

Some immediate examples:

Friar's Head
Rustic Canyon
Sebonak
Chambers Bay
Colorado Golf Club



 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2009, 05:06:09 PM »
...
Some immediate examples:

Friar's Head
Rustic Canyon
Sebonak
Chambers Bay
Colorado Golf Club



 

Boston golf club
TPC Boston
Beechtree
Old Sandwich
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2009, 03:17:23 AM »
And all of those courses are World Top 100?

Rich Goodale

Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2009, 04:21:12 AM »
I've always thought that one of the significant reasons for the shift to more manufactured courses in the post WWII was due to the experience that the US accumulated through the war with it's Construction Batallions (CB's or "Seabees").  Over all theatres, but mostly in the Pacific campaign there was a huge amount of expertise developed to created something from nothing for military purposes (Ports, airports, etc.)  There were over 300,000 potential "shapers" trained in the Seabees during the war, and when civilian life returned and prosperity grew in the early 1950's, when golf courses were to be built they were done so more under the "Can Do" (Miximalist) than "shouldn't do" (Minimalist) creed.

Even though thoughts have shifted over the past 10-15 years, am not yet convinced that the Minimalist faction has won the battle.  As we see in all areas of life, even in forums such as this, regression to the mean is a fact of life.  In tennis, the homogenized version of the game which we see today is the product of an evolution which has seen the quirkiness of Court Tennis, the elegance of the backcourt game of the 1930's and the excitement of the serve and volley game of the 1950's-1990's all put the the sidelines of the steroid enhanced "power" game of whack it from the baseline as hard as you can.

Interestingly, someone who might well have approved of this shift was oor Joshua Crane, who happened to be one of the finest Court Tennis players of all time.....

Jason Topp

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Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2009, 07:39:28 AM »
And all of those courses are World Top 100?

My courses were us top 100 modern from Golfweek.  I do not think the world top 100 is a reasonable restriction for evaluating courses built in the last 15 years.  I doubt much more than 10 were built in that time period.  The sample size is too small. 

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2009, 07:47:17 AM »
I've always thought that one of the significant reasons for the shift to more manufactured courses in the post WWII was due to the experience that the US accumulated through the war with it's Construction Batallions (CB's or "Seabees").  Over all theatres, but mostly in the Pacific campaign there was a huge amount of expertise developed to created something from nothing for military purposes (Ports, airports, etc.)  There were over 300,000 potential "shapers" trained in the Seabees during the war, and when civilian life returned and prosperity grew in the early 1950's, when golf courses were to be built they were done so more under the "Can Do" (Miximalist) than "shouldn't do" (Minimalist) creed.

Even though thoughts have shifted over the past 10-15 years, am not yet convinced that the Minimalist faction has won the battle.  As we see in all areas of life, even in forums such as this, regression to the mean is a fact of life.  In tennis, the homogenized version of the game which we see today is the product of an evolution which has seen the quirkiness of Court Tennis, the elegance of the backcourt game of the 1930's and the excitement of the serve and volley game of the 1950's-1990's all put the the sidelines of the steroid enhanced "power" game of whack it from the baseline as hard as you can.

Interestingly, someone who might well have approved of this shift was oor Joshua Crane, who happened to be one of the finest Court Tennis players of all time.....

Interesting thoughts Rich.  Paragraph 1 makes sense to me, although I think similar evolutions existed in building architecture (eg. bland office buildings and tract homes) and road construction (plowing through the land for an interstate rather than following it for route 66).

I have always wondered whether the maximilists will improve to the point that their product will match minimalist output.  It is certainly possible - even though they have detractors Kingsbarns, Whistling Straits, Rawls Course and Shadow Creek come closer than previous efforts.

Of course - economic factors may stop any evolution until the next boom.




Scott Warren

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Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2009, 07:54:10 AM »
And all of those courses are World Top 100?

My courses were us top 100 modern from Golfweek.  I do not think the world top 100 is a reasonable restriction for evaluating courses built in the last 15 years.  I doubt much more than 10 were built in that time period.  The sample size is too small.  

Jason, if you remove golden age and foreign courses from the comparison, you remove the entire basis of this discussion. I can think of few less relevent justifications.

Why is my World Top 100 basis an unrasonable restriction? Many of the finest courses in the world were built either a) outside the USA or b) before "modern" times.

So in your opinion the courses in Golfweek's Top 100 Modern are "great" simply for being in a list drawn up of courses built in a selected timeframe from just one country?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 07:58:08 AM by Scott Warren »

Jason Topp

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Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2009, 08:26:42 AM »
And all of those courses are World Top 100?

My courses were us top 100 modern from Golfweek.  I do not think the world top 100 is a reasonable restriction for evaluating courses built in the last 15 years.  I doubt much more than 10 were built in that time period.  The sample size is too small.  

Jason, if you remove golden age and foreign courses from the comparison, you remove the entire basis of this discussion. I can think of few less relevent justifications.

Why is my World Top 100 basis an unrasonable restriction? Many of the finest courses in the world were built either a) outside the USA or b) before "modern" times.

So in your opinion the courses in Golfweek's Top 100 Modern are "great" simply for being in a list drawn up of courses built in a selected timeframe from just one country?

Scott:

I hope you understand that I find your theory interesting and am open to being convinced.  It does not jibe with my impressions and I enjoy give and take to test its accuracy.  Nonetheless -

Of course most of the great courses were built before 1960 and are located outside the US.  Your hypothesis however is that if you move Doak back to the 40's and 50's or Golden age architects forward to the 40's and 50's they would not have produced great golf courses because they would have inferior land available to them.  Doak succeeds today because he can build destination courses on great land.

In order to test your hypothesis that modern courses have good land because they are destination courses built in remote areas, I think you have to identify the best of the modern courses and then look at whether your analysis is accurate.

In my view, if you limit it to the world top 100, the sample size of courses that are modern is very small.  I would argue that to analyze your hypothesis as a whole you need to look at a broader number of modern courses that are well respected for architectural merit and look at whether they are destination courses or supported by local populations. 

I looked at the US top 100 modern as some check on what is considered great and because I am somewhat familiar with whether the courses are located compared to population centers. 

What modern courses outside of the US are considered "great" and listed in the world top 100?  According to Golf Magazine, the answer is 5 -

 http://search.golf.com/top-courses-and-resorts/top-100-world-courses-2009.html?No=0&sid=123A902DF3FA&Ntk=main&Nr=AND(P_RankYear:2009)&Nr=AND(P_RankYear:2009)&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&Nf=P_RankWorld|LT%20101&Nf=P_RankWorld|LT+101&N=0&Ns=P_RankWorld|0&Nty=1

Loch Lomond, Kingsbarns, Kuari Cliffs, Barnbougle and Cape Kidnappers.  From my understanding Loch Lomond is probably supported by a local population, Kingsbarns was not on great land, and the other 3 all are destination courses.  Adding these courses to the analysis leads provides muddled support at best to your theory.

By contrast there are many contrary examples.  I think most people would consider the courses Bayley and I listed earlier as examples of great architecture with the only dispute being a matter of degree.  Most appear on lists recognizing them as such.



Scott Warren

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Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2009, 08:39:35 AM »
Isn't Loch Lomond supported by a far-flung membership limited to a certain number of visits and year, with a fee payable if they wish to leave, and a prohibitively expensive visitor rate? Tha was my undertanding.

So of the courses you and Garland listed, how many would have been viable projects in the 1950s, taking into account their local populations, affordability and demand for courses in that area?

Jason Topp

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Re: Why certain Ages are Golden, and others produced very little: a theory
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2009, 12:08:31 PM »
Isn't Loch Lomond supported by a far-flung membership limited to a certain number of visits and year, with a fee payable if they wish to leave, and a prohibitively expensive visitor rate? Tha was my undertanding.

So of the courses you and Garland listed, how many would have been viable projects in the 1950s, taking into account their local populations, affordability and demand for courses in that area?

Scott:

I do not know about Loch Lomond.  I assumed it was a local membership but I could be wrong.

Your proposed test does not work because populations have shifted since the 50's.  Here is how I would do the comparison:

Compare the land available to architects in the 50's taking into account local populations, affordability and demand for courses in the area v.  land available with similar characteristics in the golden age v. land available with such characteristics in the last 15 years.  I am not in a position to judge but my guess is that the difference in quality of available land is not huge. 

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