[Jay Flemma]

So for those of us that haven't seen HP, what are the great holes there and how will the course serve as a match play venue?

[David_Tepper]

Jay -

The best (and most telegenic) holes at Harding are #14 thru #18. My understanding is the routing of the course is being re-arranged so that those holes will play earlier in the round than they regularly do, so that those holes get played (and televised) in all the matches.

I do not know what the planned routing will be. Maybe someone can let us know.

DT   

[David_Tepper]

Here is a map of the course and how the holes will be sequenced for the Presidents Cup. I have not had a chance to go thru it in detail, but it looks like the rounds will start on #10 rather than #1 and holes 10 thru 13 will be played as 1 thru 4. Holes 14 thru 18 will be played as 10 and 12 thru 15. Hole 9 will serve as hole 18 and the regular 1st hole will become the 16th hole. 

http://www.pgatour.com/tournaments/presidentscup/course/

[Kevin_Reilly]

I wouldn't label any hole at Harding as "great", but probably the most interesting holes for this match play event might be (using the Pres Cup routing for hole #'s) the short par 4 17th...it was drivable by some back in the Amex tournament a few years ago, the short 13th (my favorite hole on the course...though I liked it better before the trees on the right were thinned out a bit) and the 15th hole which offers the temptation to cut off much of the lake on the drive in order to have a short approach.

[JLahrman]

I've only played there once, but my favorite hole was #13 which is shifted to #4 for the Presidents' Cup.

I'm not sure how the course will do as a match play venue.  It doesn't seem like there are a lot of holes where there are big decisions risk-or-reward decisions to make, however I suppose it depends on how they set the course up.

David's map is very helpful, they have definitely rejiggered the order in which the holes will be played.

[Jay Flemma]

I noticed the re-routing.  They wanted 18 to get more play and knew not every match would get there.  That's why they moved it up. 

[PThomas]

I noticed the re-routing.  They wanted 18 to get more play and knew not every match would get there.  That's why they moved it up. 

i bet Adam Scott doesnt go low...

[Jay Flemma]

I noticed the re-routing.  They wanted 18 to get more play and knew not every match would get there.  That's why they moved it up. 

i bet Adam Scott doesnt go low...

I agree.

[Bill_McBride]

The original #9, now #18, might be the blandest hole on the course, but with the possibility of eagles will make for an exciting finish to matches that go that far.  I think they've done a very imaginative job of rerouting the course to maximize the match play opportunities and flow.  The lakeside holes come on the back nine so will be integral to matches.

Looks like fun, but there are some pretty good hikes from greens to new next tees.  The new #10-11-12 is pretty weird, the walk from original #14 to #15 was 30 yards, now there's a 100 yard walk back twice to play those two holes!

It's also interesting they've taken a classic double loop course and turned it into an out and back course.  Sort of!

[John Handley]

 For the life of me, I still do not understand why they are insisting having Harding Park host high-level PGA events.  I have played HP many times and I am just not that impressed with the golf course.  It's not long, the greens are flat and unless the wind is blowing, it is just not very difficult.  I played it the Monday after the AMEX Championship a few years ago and the only thing I found challenging was the growth of the rough surrounding the greens.  Personally, I think the pros will go low.  And as for match play, they are not very many risk/reward holes.  Don't get me wrong, it is a great muni but not a top tier course.  Why not try to play a President's Cup or Ryder Cup at historic venues?  Cypress Point would be alot of fun to watch. 

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

For the life of me, I still do not understand why they are insisting having Harding Park host high-level PGA events.  I have played HP many times and I am just not that impressed with the golf course.  It's not long, the greens are flat and unless the wind is blowing, it is just not very difficult.  I played it the Monday after the AMEX Championship a few years ago and the only thing I found challenging was the growth of the rough surrounding the greens.  Personally, I think the pros will go low.  And as for match play, they are not very many risk/reward holes.  Don't get me wrong, it is a great muni but not a top tier course.  Why not try to play a President's Cup or Ryder Cup at historic venues?  Cypress Point would be alot of fun to watch. 

so would Cal Club 

[Matt_Cohn]

Can anyone give an example of a golf course that is a better stroke play venue than a match play venue?

[Jay Flemma]

Can anyone give an example of a golf course that is a better stroke play venue than a match play venue?

Oakland Hills.

[Tim Leahy]

Can anyone give an example of a golf course that is a better stroke play venue than a match play venue?

I think Olympic played better as a match play venue for the US-AM a few years ago than it did as an Open venue. I think in a match play situation you are going to see more shots tried from under the trees and down the wrong fairways at courses like Olympic and Harding than in stroke play events where the players will just pitch back to the fairway from under the trees than try a dangerous shot. Maybe except Phil!

[David_Tepper]

John Handley -

You might not find Harding that challenging (and congratulations to you on that ), but my recollection is that the pros hardly torched the course with low scores when the AMEX Championship was held there several years ago. They played it as a par-70 and I don't think the winning score was more than 8 or 9 under.

My sense was the pros enjoyed the course and having Tiger defeat John Daly in a playoff certainly went over big with the media. I am pretty sure the Champions Tour Championships will move from Sonoma GC to Harding in October of 2010 for a 4-year engagement.

The fact of the matter is that the PGA likes coming to San Francisco.

DT

[Matt_Cohn]

Can anyone give an example of a golf course that is a better stroke play venue than a match play venue?

Oakland Hills.

Why? I thought that Ryder Cup was pretty interesting.

[Jay Flemma]

The ryder cup was a rout, but moreover, the course was set-up in its penal form.  The course comes alive when they have far more rough shaved so the fairway contours and angles are back in play.  If they use it as a center-line course, it's just more dramatic for a stroke play event.

[JLahrman]

Although I'm sure it's been discussed on other threads, what are the differences in what makes a course or a course setup more appealing for one stroke play and match play or vice versa?

[Bill_McBride]

Although I'm sure it's been discussed on other threads, what are the differences in what makes a course or a course setup more appealing for one stroke play and match play or vice versa?

I think a superior match play course would have more risk/reward holes and more half par holes.

Since match play, at least singles match play, is one on one, there's likely to be more risk taking.  In medal play you have to avoid big numbers; in match play, one bad hole is only one hole lost.

I do think the short par 4 / short par 5 finish at Harding Park will yield some exciting finishes when matches go that far.

[David_Tepper]

As Kevin R. mentions above, I think #13 (usually the 16th hole) is another short par-4 that provides some interesting choices for the players. I would think in most of the 4-ball matches that at least one player on each team will hit driver to try to reach the green or get darn close to it.

[John Handley]

If the Champions Tour event moves from Sonoma GC to Harding Park, it is purely to get more people to the event as opposed to a "better" venue.  Sonoma GC is a fantastic golf course with some of the best greens in No Cal.

We'll see what the pros say after the President's Cup but my guess is they will not be impressed.  Don't get me wrong, it is a good muni but it not in the same class as other venues.

I think it has to do with the push to hold tournaments at public golf courses. 

[Jay Flemma]

so what's the latest?  who's going?  any word from the cali folks about how the course is looking?  how about two eagle ops to close the round (if matches get that far)?

[David_Tepper]

Jay -

I have heard no negative buzz in the local media about the condition of the course (and the greens), so I assume the course has rounded into shape nicely.

I believe the course closed for public play this past Tuesday. I have every expectation the course will be in fine shape for the event.

DT

[Jay Flemma]

I hear it will be fun no matter what.  Lots of 1/2 par holes.

[David_Tepper]

This week's GolfWorld magazine has a Presidents Cup preview article by Ron Whitten on Harding:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golfworld/special/presidentscup/2009/golf_harding_park_whitten_1005

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