[Tim Bert]

The only hole I have ever played where 3 is a bad score is the short par three 8th at Holston Hills. No good reason to ever make a 3 there. It feels like a bogey!

Is this a joke?  That is a great hole and no one has had more twos than threes on that hole.....

Tim was a revolution away from making two 2's on 8 while playing 36 at Holston this past Sunday.  He was pissed he missed his second 2 on 8 so he took it out on the par 4 9th.  Yep, he holed it from 150 for a 2.  

Mike - yes it is a joke, but #8 felt like a par 2.  My tee shots finished about 5 feet and 8 feet from the hole.  Lipping out the 8 footer (which had the same line as the 5 footer) felt like a bogey at the time.

Mayhugh and Smith assure me that the hole has sufficient defenses.

[Bill_McBride]

Kyle, what were the greens at Mountain Lake?  I was thinking they were an ultradwarf, most likely TifEagle.  No?  What don't you like about TifEagle greens?  I personally think they are the best possible greens for our climate zone - so long as they don't make you overseed!

Have you had any experience with Champion?  I have heard so much anecdotal testimony about the high maintenance requirements after a couple of years that it is scary.  They sure are nice to start with, great putting surface down south.

The greens are TifEagle. The problems with the ultradrawves probably aren't consider problems simply because they are more a result of the climate and soil in that portion of Florida. Bill, I think you're in Pensacola, correct? Believe it or not, that is actually far enough north where any of the Tif Ultradwarves are a bit less persnickety. TifEagle is the like the tempermental two year old of the turf world. A lot of spoon feeding and a lot of close up management such as watering and cultivation.

It wouldn't be my first choice except where dictated by the climate.

Okay, following up -- at Mountain Lake or Pensacola CC, my home course, what turf would you most favor for the greens?

If you've had experience with Champion, how would you compare its maintenance demands with TifEagle?

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle, what were the greens at Mountain Lake?  I was thinking they were an ultradwarf, most likely TifEagle.  No?  What don't you like about TifEagle greens?  I personally think they are the best possible greens for our climate zone - so long as they don't make you overseed!

Have you had any experience with Champion?  I have heard so much anecdotal testimony about the high maintenance requirements after a couple of years that it is scary.  They sure are nice to start with, great putting surface down south.

The greens are TifEagle. The problems with the ultradrawves probably aren't consider problems simply because they are more a result of the climate and soil in that portion of Florida. Bill, I think you're in Pensacola, correct? Believe it or not, that is actually far enough north where any of the Tif Ultradwarves are a bit less persnickety. TifEagle is the like the tempermental two year old of the turf world. A lot of spoon feeding and a lot of close up management such as watering and cultivation.

It wouldn't be my first choice except where dictated by the climate.

Okay, following up -- at Mountain Lake or Pensacola CC, my home course, what turf would you most favor for the greens?

If you've had experience with Champion, how would you compare its maintenance demands with TifEagle?

No experience with Champion, but form my limisted experience, Miniverde (TPC Sawgrass) is the way to go.

What can you tell me about the greens at Pensacola? Do a lot of handwatering? What sort of fertilizer applications?

[Kyle Harris]

Joe Hancock,

That is some of the warmest sound B3 work I've heard in a long time. The ending 3 minute bit is pure magic.

[Bill_McBride]

Kyle, what were the greens at Mountain Lake?  I was thinking they were an ultradwarf, most likely TifEagle.  No?  What don't you like about TifEagle greens?  I personally think they are the best possible greens for our climate zone - so long as they don't make you overseed!

Have you had any experience with Champion?  I have heard so much anecdotal testimony about the high maintenance requirements after a couple of years that it is scary.  They sure are nice to start with, great putting surface down south.

The greens are TifEagle. The problems with the ultradrawves probably aren't consider problems simply because they are more a result of the climate and soil in that portion of Florida. Bill, I think you're in Pensacola, correct? Believe it or not, that is actually far enough north where any of the Tif Ultradwarves are a bit less persnickety. TifEagle is the like the tempermental two year old of the turf world. A lot of spoon feeding and a lot of close up management such as watering and cultivation.

It wouldn't be my first choice except where dictated by the climate.

Okay, following up -- at Mountain Lake or Pensacola CC, my home course, what turf would you most favor for the greens?

If you've had experience with Champion, how would you compare its maintenance demands with TifEagle?

No experience with Champion, but form my limisted experience, Miniverde (TPC Sawgrass) is the way to go.

What can you tell me about the greens at Pensacola? Do a lot of handwatering? What sort of fertilizer applications?

I am no longer on the green committee, have no idea about the above.  I see no hand watering when I'm out there.  The greens get sort of brown in the winter but play better than in the summer (dormant) as do the surrounds.  Dormant TifEagle, Tifdwarf and Tif 419 are a whole lot like links turf!

My major aggravation is a design problem - there's minimal slope in front of a couple of greens and these approach areas stay too soggy for thoughtful ground game approaches to front pins.   

[Kyle Harris]

Bill,

That very well could be a problem with the irrigation design, especially if the front two greenside heads have to throw out into the approach to cover the entire green.

Dormant Tifeagle is a wonderful surface upon which to play. We had some great days at Mountain Lake when they were a purple hue.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

That very well could be a problem with the irrigation design, especially if the front two greenside heads have to throw out into the approach to cover the entire green.

Dormant Tifeagle is a wonderful surface upon which to play. We had some great days at Mountain Lake when they were a purple hue.

I think it's a combination of too much water and no where for it to go - I think the slope in front of #3 and #8 are <2% on Tif 419.   

[Chip Gaskins]

Kyle-

Do you think there is any correlation between the difficulty to grow good turf grass in the mid-Atlantic (Richmond to Philly) region with the lack of truly great golf courses?  Are new types of grasses going to help that?  The mid-Atlantic is sort of the no-mans land of grasses...not too good for bermuda, bent, blue, etc...

Chip

[Ed Oden]

Kyle, HVCC has one of the best maintenance melds I've seen anywhere; firm and fast and not afraid of a little brown.  What are the biggest challenges specific to maintaining those conditions?  Maintenance aside, how do you think the C nine compares with the A and B nines?  If you were King is there anything at HVCC you would change/do differently?

Ed

[Bill_McBride]

Kyle-

Do you think there is any correlation between the difficulty to grow good turf grass in the mid-Atlantic (Richmond to Philly) region with the lack of truly great golf courses?  Are new types of grasses going to help that?  The mid-Atlantic is sort of the no-mans land of grasses...not too good for bermuda, bent, blue, etc...

Chip

Chip, the other thing I noticed about golf in the greater DC area was the relatively poor terrain for golf - too many ridges.  It can be hard to design good holes if you don't want (a) a lot of blind shots over ridges, or (2) a lot of soggy fairways in valleys.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Kyle, what were the greens at Mountain Lake?  I was thinking they were an ultradwarf, most likely TifEagle.  No?  What don't you like about TifEagle greens?  I personally think they are the best possible greens for our climate zone - so long as they don't make you overseed!

Have you had any experience with Champion?  I have heard so much anecdotal testimony about the high maintenance requirements after a couple of years that it is scary.  They sure are nice to start with, great putting surface down south.

The greens are TifEagle. The problems with the ultradrawves probably aren't consider problems simply because they are more a result of the climate and soil in that portion of Florida. Bill, I think you're in Pensacola, correct? Believe it or not, that is actually far enough north where any of the Tif Ultradwarves are a bit less persnickety. TifEagle is the like the tempermental two year old of the turf world. A lot of spoon feeding and a lot of close up management such as watering and cultivation.

It wouldn't be my first choice except where dictated by the climate.

Okay, following up -- at Mountain Lake or Pensacola CC, my home course, what turf would you most favor for the greens?

If you've had experience with Champion, how would you compare its maintenance demands with TifEagle?

No experience with Champion, but form my limisted experience, Miniverde (TPC Sawgrass) is the way to go.

What can you tell me about the greens at Pensacola? Do a lot of handwatering? What sort of fertilizer applications?

Kyle,
  Be careful in what you wish for with Miniverde. It has slowy become more like tifeagle, meaning it's a thatch maker, ESPECIALLY when you are not on top of your cultural practices. Champion seems to be the best, firmest of the ultradwafts.
  IMHO, Paspalum is more of a marketing ploy than anything else. It's stripes up like a cool season grass, is a tight surface to hit off, BUT it is a haven for BROWN PATCH and will never be a great putting surface. It's way to "sticky" to play firm, but many people like it cause it's pretty.
  Back to watching it rain....

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

[Scott Warren]

Anthony,

When did you fly the coop from Colonial?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Scott,
  I have been here at PT since the first of July...been working hard since!

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

[Bill_McBride]

Kyle, what were the greens at Mountain Lake?  I was thinking they were an ultradwarf, most likely TifEagle.  No?  What don't you like about TifEagle greens?  I personally think they are the best possible greens for our climate zone - so long as they don't make you overseed!

Have you had any experience with Champion?  I have heard so much anecdotal testimony about the high maintenance requirements after a couple of years that it is scary.  They sure are nice to start with, great putting surface down south.

The greens are TifEagle. The problems with the ultradrawves probably aren't consider problems simply because they are more a result of the climate and soil in that portion of Florida. Bill, I think you're in Pensacola, correct? Believe it or not, that is actually far enough north where any of the Tif Ultradwarves are a bit less persnickety. TifEagle is the like the tempermental two year old of the turf world. A lot of spoon feeding and a lot of close up management such as watering and cultivation.

It wouldn't be my first choice except where dictated by the climate.

Okay, following up -- at Mountain Lake or Pensacola CC, my home course, what turf would you most favor for the greens?

If you've had experience with Champion, how would you compare its maintenance demands with TifEagle?

No experience with Champion, but form my limisted experience, Miniverde (TPC Sawgrass) is the way to go.

What can you tell me about the greens at Pensacola? Do a lot of handwatering? What sort of fertilizer applications?

Kyle,
  Be careful in what you wish for with Miniverde. It has slowy become more like tifeagle, meaning it's a thatch maker, ESPECIALLY when you are not on top of your cultural practices. Champion seems to be the best, firmest of the ultradwafts.
  IMHO, Paspalum is more of a marketing ploy than anything else. It's stripes up like a cool season grass, is a tight surface to hit off, BUT it is a haven for BROWN PATCH and will never be a great putting surface. It's way to "sticky" to play firm, but many people like it cause it's pretty.
  Back to watching it rain....

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

Tony, I've been told by supers that Champion is the most mainenance-intensive of all the ultradwarfs after the first couple of wonderful years.  Is that what yoiu have on the greens at Pine Tree?

[astavrides]

Kyle,
  Be careful in what you wish for with Miniverde. It has slowy become more like tifeagle, meaning it's a thatch maker, ESPECIALLY when you are not on top of your cultural practices. Champion seems to be the best, firmest of the ultradwafts.
  IMHO, Paspalum is more of a marketing ploy than anything else. It's stripes up like a cool season grass, is a tight surface to hit off, BUT it is a haven for BROWN PATCH and will never be a great putting surface. It's way to "sticky" to play firm, but many people like it cause it's pretty.
  Back to watching it rain....

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

Don't people talk about being about to water it with salt water?  Is it true?

[Bill_McBride]

Kyle,
  Be careful in what you wish for with Miniverde. It has slowy become more like tifeagle, meaning it's a thatch maker, ESPECIALLY when you are not on top of your cultural practices. Champion seems to be the best, firmest of the ultradwafts.
  IMHO, Paspalum is more of a marketing ploy than anything else. It's stripes up like a cool season grass, is a tight surface to hit off, BUT it is a haven for BROWN PATCH and will never be a great putting surface. It's way to "sticky" to play firm, but many people like it cause it's pretty.
  Back to watching it rain....

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

Don't people talk about being about to water it with salt water?  Is it true?

yes, but you also have to flush it frequently with fresh water.  My only experience with it was at Forrest Richardson's wonderful Las Palomas course on the northern shore of the Sea of Cortez at Puerto Penasco (Rocky Point).  It is a TIGHT surface, very firm.

[Anthony_Nysse]

AND the growing in the turf requires A LOT of fresh water...

Bill,
  Most greens will be very firm their first couple years because of lack of Organic Material. In fact, a lot of courses do not need to aerify their greens as much during the first year or 2 because they are too firm and need a little OM.

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

[astavrides]

Is the floor still open to questions for Kyle?

Kyle, we know you are a fan of classic designs by Ross, Flynn, Raynor, Park, etc.  What designers and courses are you a fan of since that era?  I suspect Moran, Doak, Blaukovitch.  Any others?

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle-

Do you think there is any correlation between the difficulty to grow good turf grass in the mid-Atlantic (Richmond to Philly) region with the lack of truly great golf courses?  Are new types of grasses going to help that?  The mid-Atlantic is sort of the no-mans land of grasses...not too good for bermuda, bent, blue, etc...

Chip

Chip,

I think it's more an indication of where the large financial seats of power were during the first major boom of golf in the US - Philadelphia, Chicago and New York. Philadelphia certainly exhibited turf trouble early on but it was the guys like Valentine, Alan Wilson, Flynn and Frank Meehan that did a lot of the leg work to get the USGA Green Section up and running... Tom Paul can certainly chime in with a more specific answer as to their contributions.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle, HVCC has one of the best maintenance melds I've seen anywhere; firm and fast and not afraid of a little brown.  What are the biggest challenges specific to maintaining those conditions?  Maintenance aside, how do you think the C nine compares with the A and B nines?  If you were King is there anything at HVCC you would change/do differently?

Ed

Ed,

I think the largest challenge is actually maintaining the ability to hold back even when you begin to see signs of stress or disease pressure. Scott commonly asks the question as to whether or not we are going to "react" or "respond." We try to "respond" more often than react. The key is to know when to take a deep breath and select a course of action with the big picture in mind and not necessarily the next few days. Who cares if Dollar Spot is showing up if it's going to dry out soon and be knocked back by growth and a spray schedule two days later? Things like that.

I love the C Nine, but the criticism that it is a little too tough may be warranted. C Nine is a lot more "Gravity golf" than the A/B nines with fewer bunkers - however, the bogey golfer can get around in the low 40s if he is both clever and patient, taking what the course gives him. One cannot overpower the C-Nine, especially from the back tees and the player must be prepared to make pars from the approaches or peripheries of the greens if they are not dead on. The easiest "5" on the golf course is a 610 yard hole!

The changes I'd make are mainly tree related - and involve cleaning out a lot of the areas under the trees or eliminating a good amount of them. The left side of 13 tee comes to mind immediately as it would frame the shot left and force the golfer to really concentrate on his line to the green.

I've also mentioned building a new tee on A-8 just short and to the right of the current Blue Tee that would be large enough to accommodate both the Blue and White tees on certain days. 

Fairway expansion is another worthy goal, IMO, especially on some of the A-nine like the right side of 1, the second shot landing area on 7, the tee ball on 6 (move the fairway left to allow hooks to roll a bit further down the hill and bring the fairway bunker into play as it was originally designed). However, it should be noted that most HVCC fairways are up to 60 yards wide and none are much narrower than 40.

[Kyle Harris]

Is the floor still open to questions for Kyle?

Kyle, we know you are a fan of classic designs by Ross, Flynn, Raynor, Park, etc.  What designers and courses are you a fan of since that era?  I suspect Moran, Doak, Blaukovitch.  Any others?

Alex,

You've got three of them, though I've only played on Doak and that is NLE (Beechtree). Let's add Stephen Kay to that list both in terms of restoration and originals. We can add PineCrest (Ron Prichard), as well.

An interesting sleeper: Harrison and Garbin. The original Blue Course, while not nearly as subtle as the White, must have been a fun and good golf course to play and the holes there which survive are quite good.

I'll rarely turn down a chance to play a Hurdzan/Fry course and I'm most fond of Neshanic Valley.

George Fazio is probably much more competent than we give him credit for. Downingtown is a superb routing and it seems Gil Hanse always gets to bunker his courses

I do like Gil's work too, but I also think some of the criticism leveled on places like Inniscrone and French Creek are warranted. The problem with Inniscrone is that the golfer either plays the 6100 yard tees with no forced carries, the 6700 yard with a few, or the 7000 with all sorts of trouble to carry off the tee. However, fairway to green, Gil is doing some of the best work I've seen.

[astavrides]

Kyle,

Good call on Hurdzian/Fry. 
Thanks for reminding me about PineCrest.  I haven't been there.  I'll have to try to get out there to check it out sometime.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

Good call on Hurdzian/Fry. 
Thanks for reminding me about PineCrest.  I haven't been there.  I'll have to try to get out there to check it out sometime.

Let's do it. I think you'll enjoy it though it can be a bit tight in places. A lot of great greens to which one is hitting short approaches.

[Michael Blake]

Downingtown is a superb routing

Except for hole #1, which faces dead East into the sun and is blinding as you stand on the tee and look down the fairway.  Opposite for hole #18 which faces dead West with the same effect standing on the tee.

Isn't rule #1 of routing a course to avoid that...according to Jeff Brauer in one of his monthly Golf Industry articles 

I do really like Downingtown though.  Holes 1-12 are great.  And I enjoy the back nine which features 3-3's, 3-4's, and 3'5's.

...anyway back to Kyle.  Wakeman or Banks?

[Kyle Harris]

Downingtown is a superb routing

Except for hole #1, which faces dead East into the sun and is blinding as you stand on the tee and look down the fairway.  Opposite for hole #18 which faces dead West with the same effect standing on the tee.

Isn't rule #1 of routing a course to avoid that...according to Jeff Brauer in one of his monthly Golf Industry articles  

I do really like Downingtown though.  Holes 1-12 are great.  And I enjoy the back nine which features 3-3's, 3-4's, and 3'5's.

...anyway back to Kyle.  Wakeman or Banks?

Banks by a million.

Rick Wakeman can take his cape and shove it wear the sun doesn't shine. Twice on Sunday.

Yessucks.

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