Played Castle Stuart for the second time

[DMoriarty]

David (Mor)

“Perhaps you are overplaying this issue by many magnitudes?” 

I just love it, after the verbal battles your and TomP had on the Merion Threads between talking about the actual issues, you accuse me of overplaying the sleeper issue.

Many of us do not like our courses to look contrived, preferring them to be honest and straightforward. We don’t need or like the Chocolate Box look. As a recent TV advert in this country we require “It does exactly what it says on the tin".

As for the sleepers its total overkill, they are everywhere and worst still left uneven, yet when as previously mentioned re the old photos you posted all the old sleepers were finished in a uniform horizontal manner. Yes, it’s just the odd bunker that received the old age treatment, but how many self-respecting Green Keeper on here would keep their bunkers full of old rotten bits of sleepers. It would, I have thought been repaired or removed before the Greens Committee complained about the state of the bunker(s) and the faith they put in their Green Keeper.

I don’t believe it’s our way of doing things here in GB&I and after all, the intention is to sell/market a Scottish course to the world. Think someone make a minor error, but maybe understanding the Overseas market it was a deliberate ploy to attract the uninitiated to the Scottish game. Who knows?
I just don’t see the need to fake things and certainly not try to age a new course.

However, let’s move on, leaving it that you perhaps accept the look, I don’t. The important bit is how good is the course, which from reports seem to be rather above average for a new course. I hope all goes well at Castle Stuart and that the odd pieces of wood are soon removed, because the photos do display a very interesting course. The Castle Stuart location is far more appropriate than the Links Trust site for the Castle Course, so I do wish it well.

Melvyn 

Melvyn,  I agree that the important bit is the course, which is why I suggested that your returning to this sleeper issue again and again is overkill, especially if there are only in a few bunkers.   Sounds like we are both ready to move on though.   I hope you manage to play the course as I would be interested in hearing your opinions on that the meat of the matter.

[David_Tepper]

Mark P. -

Yes, the Ailsa course at Turnberry was restored after WWII, but the hotel originally opend in 1906 and the courses were first built well before WWII (maybe even before WWI).

Niall C. -

My perception is the CS ownership aims to make CS a destination resort in and of itself. The CS website alludes to Gleneagles & Turnberry right up front. Once the hotel, spa, fairway lodges and 2nd course at CS are all completed, CS will be a one-stop shop. The fact that it is less than a 5-minute drive from Inverness airport makes the place very convenient & accessible from both within the UK and from places in Europe as well. With Nairn 15 minutes away, Lossiemouth 40 minutes away and Dornoch less than an hour away, there is quality golf available for those who might wish to spend time "off the reservation."   

Time, as always, will tell.

DT

[Melvyn Morrow]

David/Mark

A Turnberry Course using the Marquis of Ailsa land circa 1892 (article, previously posted some weeks ago)


Melvyn

[Mitch Hantman]

I would have to agree with David T in that I think it will be quite successful.  Between the principal's track record, a great course that should receive major accolades, and access to Inverness airport and many hotel options, this course should cause a synergistic effect helping out the likes of Royal Dornoch, Tain, Golspie, Brora, Fortrose/Rosemarkie, Nairn, and the others in the area.  It should bookend Dornoch as the two must play courses in the Highlands, making that area more of a destination for visitors.

[Tom_Doak]

Just curious, since Mitch suggests that proximity to Inverness Airport will help Castle Stuart.

Has anyone on this web site actually flown to Inverness?  Or to Aberdeen, where Mr. Trump is betting on the same phenomenon?

Proximity to an airport has been an important factor in assessing the prospects for many USA courses -- although Sand Hills demonstrates the lack of need for airport access if a course ascends to the Pantheon.

[David_Tepper]

Tom -

I have flown in & out of Inverness airport (to both Heathrow & Gatwick) a half-dozen or more times over the past 3-4 years. In fact, I flew from Inverness to Gatwick yesterday. Unfortunately, the daily BMI flights between Heathrow and Inverness were discontinued in early 2008.

Castle Stuart is literally a 5-minute drive from the airport.

There are flights to Inverness from Gatwick, Luton, Bristol, Belfast and Dublin. I believe there is also a weekly flight or two between Inverness and the continent. Some of those routes are serviced only in the summer months.

DT     

[Jason McNamara]

But isn't (relative) proximity to R Dornoch a bigger deal?  That is, now there are (ostensibly) two "biggies" to see up there.


EDIT:  For clarification, I'm saying Dornoch is a bigger deal than having the Inverness airport there.

[Brian Phillips]

Just curious, since Mitch suggests that proximity to Inverness Airport will help Castle Stuart.

Has anyone on this web site actually flown to Inverness?  Or to Aberdeen, where Mr. Trump is betting on the same phenomenon?

Proximity to an airport has been an important factor in assessing the prospects for many USA courses -- although Sand Hills demonstrates the lack of need for airport access if a course ascends to the Pantheon.

Tom,

Aberdeen is probably one busiest small airports in Britain due to the Oil Industry.  The city has not been hit by the financial crisis and has it's own financial climate similar to that of Stavanger in Norway.  There are flights between the two cities all day.  Aberdeen receives flights from all over Europe all day long.  Most of the long haul flights come via Amsterdam or Heathrow though.

Inverness is another story and at the moment is a pain to get to from anywhere outside of Britain but this may change.

[Sean_A]

Yes Tom, I have flown to Inverness and Aberdeen just to play golf.  I couldn't make the drive to Dornoch for the amount of time I like to take off for golf trips - its way too much driving to call it a holiday.  When last at Inverness, I chose Nairn over Lossiemouth simply because of its proximity to the airport.  I suspect the next time I am up there I will choose Castle Stuart for the same reason - though because of the price it will mean one less game at Dornoch!

Ciao

[Mark Arata]

playing 36 at CS tomorrow, just got done with a 36 hole day at Dornoch, followed by a morning 18 at Dornoch and the afternoon 18 at Brora.......

In my eyes, it is going to be hard to beat Royal Dornoch......what a place. Everything we have seen here has been good, a few have been great, and 2 have been otherworldly.........TOC and Dornoch......

We still have Cruden Bay, CS, and Royal Aberdeen left, plus hopefully a final round on TOC.......

[Niall C]

David T

As Brian says Inverness airport is relatively inaccessible as far as range of destinations is concerned. I would also suggest that there is relatively no difference for a golf trip between 5 mins from airport and being 45 mins from airport. The important point is a golfer travelling for a game by plane will put up with an extra 40 odd mins travel time from course to airport if he's going to all the bother and expense of flying in for a game and leaving the same day. If he's not leaving the same day he will want to be playign more courses, and ones that would make him travel. With CS, Moray and the Highlands is building up a bit more critical mass however it is a long way behind east lothian and ayrshire which have a great many more courses to choose from.

Thats why Ardeer (when it eventually gets developed) will beat hands down anything that Trump can produce in Aberdeen or Mark Parsinen at CS.

Also David, I assume from some of your comments that you maybe don't live and play your golf in the UK. I apologise if I'm wrong but it seems that a lot of overseas players, maybe more so Americans, maybe don't realise that most UK golfers undertaking golf trips in the UK will do so by car. Sean is perhaps an exception but then he is American and he does live about as far as you can get from CS on this small island. The point is that courses like Kingsbarns and Turnberry have a lot more courses round about to provide a greater critical mass of attractions but they also have much better transport links and a much bigger catchment area for UK golfers who will drive there to play golf.

Niall

ps. Kingsbarns was built on both links (lower holes) and more typical farmland soil (higher holes). As I understand it they did a pretty good job of mixing the two to provide consistency throughout the course. I had always thought that was the reason why it shut over winter because it would have got wet and muddy, no ? I believe CS is the same.

pps. don't confuse what Trump is doing in Aberdeen with a golf development, it is a huge resi/hotel development with a golf course attached. 

[Adam Lawrence]

I think the proximity to Inverness airport is important for attracting British visitors. As previous posters have said, there are lots of flights there from various UK airports. Sans airport, Inverness is a big hike if you're in England. Obviously if coming in fom the US, the calculation is rather different.

Adam

[Brian Phillips]

Welcome aboard Adam!!

[Andrew Mitchell]

I think the proximity to Inverness airport is important for attracting British visitors. As previous posters have said, there are lots of flights there from various UK airports. Sans airport, Inverness is a big hike if you're in England. Obviously if coming in fom the US, the calculation is rather different.

Adam

Welcome Adam
I always look forward to receiving my copy of your magazine.  I don't have the latest issue to hand at the moment but was it you that did the write up on Castle Stuart?

[Adam Lawrence]

I think the proximity to Inverness airport is important for attracting British visitors. As previous posters have said, there are lots of flights there from various UK airports. Sans airport, Inverness is a big hike if you're in England. Obviously if coming in fom the US, the calculation is rather different.

Adam

Welcome Adam
I always look forward to receiving my copy of your magazine.  I don't have the latest issue to hand at the moment but was it you that did the write up on Castle Stuart?

No, that was by Tom Mackin, who's an American freelancer.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Adam

Good to see you have stopped lurking and taken the only sensible step. Come on in, just jumped in with both feet.
 
Look forward to reading many, many interesting comments and topics in due course.

Trust all is well and life has been good for you over the last year or so.

Melvyn

PS Still dislike the sleepers in a couple of the bunkers.

[Niall C]

I think the proximity to Inverness airport is important for attracting British visitors. As previous posters have said, there are lots of flights there from various UK airports. Sans airport, Inverness is a big hike if you're in England. Obviously if coming in fom the US, the calculation is rather different.

Adam

Adam

Let me add my welcome to that of others.

Still think you miss my point on CS. I didn't say that it wouldn't be successful, indeed I think I said it would and that I also hoped it would. The point I was endeavouring to make in my previous post was that ayrshire courses, east lothian courses as well as fife courses are all serviced by far bigger airports with very many more international and domestic routes. The other point I was making was that for these courses I would imagine that a high percentage of their visitors are day trippers or in the area for a weekend. In that case the majority would be driving.

That said I know James Boon is playing it on Friday but then he was flying up on a jolly to play Nairn (I think) and is taking advantage while he is up. I would be interested to hear if Dornoch has done any research to see where there visitors are coming from and how they got there. That would give an indication.

Niall

[David_Tepper]

Niall C.  -

I can assure you that the developers of CS did plenty of research in selecting this site for their project and that the proximity of this site to Inverness airport was material in selecting that site.

DT

[Tim Pitner]

Niall,

Can you tell us more about Ardeer?  Is there a golf course architect attached at this point?

Thanks.

[Adam Lawrence]

Niall,

Can you tell us more about Ardeer?  Is there a golf course architect attached at this point?

Thanks.

Not to steal Niall's thunder, but I think by Ardeer he probably means the big regeneration project at Irvine Bay - see www.irvinebay.co.uk. The PR has talked about David Kidd doing the golf course, but everything has gone fairly quiet - I haven't heard anything new about it for quite some time.

Adam

[Sean_A]

David T

As Brian says Inverness airport is relatively inaccessible as far as range of destinations is concerned. I would also suggest that there is relatively no difference for a golf trip between 5 mins from airport and being 45 mins from airport. The important point is a golfer travelling for a game by plane will put up with an extra 40 odd mins travel time from course to airport if he's going to all the bother and expense of flying in for a game and leaving the same day. If he's not leaving the same day he will want to be playign more courses, and ones that would make him travel. With CS, Moray and the Highlands is building up a bit more critical mass however it is a long way behind east lothian and ayrshire which have a great many more courses to choose from.

Thats why Ardeer (when it eventually gets developed) will beat hands down anything that Trump can produce in Aberdeen or Mark Parsinen at CS.

Also David, I assume from some of your comments that you maybe don't live and play your golf in the UK. I apologise if I'm wrong but it seems that a lot of overseas players, maybe more so Americans, maybe don't realise that most UK golfers undertaking golf trips in the UK will do so by car. Sean is perhaps an exception but then he is American and he does live about as far as you can get from CS on this small island. The point is that courses like Kingsbarns and Turnberry have a lot more courses round about to provide a greater critical mass of attractions but they also have much better transport links and a much bigger catchment area for UK golfers who will drive there to play golf.

Niall

ps. Kingsbarns was built on both links (lower holes) and more typical farmland soil (higher holes). As I understand it they did a pretty good job of mixing the two to provide consistency throughout the course. I had always thought that was the reason why it shut over winter because it would have got wet and muddy, no ? I believe CS is the same.

pps. don't confuse what Trump is doing in Aberdeen with a golf development, it is a huge resi/hotel development with a golf course attached.  

Niall

Its about an 8-9 hour drive to Inverness from where I live. For many, many millions more nearer to London you can tag on more windshield time.  I have done the trip both ways, but if I want to go on golf holiday to the north of Scotland and not spend a week faffin about (there is no way I would be interested in spending a week driving up hill and down dale to play golf), I have to fly.  Also, proximity to the airport for me is very important as this is the last course of a trip and usually time is a big issue.  So, 45 minutes away can be problematic in terms of playing then catching a flight.  In short, I expect the reason I will play Castle Stuart one day is because its generally close to Dornoch and Brora and it is very close to the airport.  There is absolutely no question in my mind that CS being near Inverness Airport will be a huge bonus for turning over business.

Ciao

[Stan Dodd]

iI ponied up and played Castle Stuart this past August.  I drove down form Dornoch on the off day during the Shield.
I loved the golf course.  It was a fun day.  The golf shots are at times thrilling, almost always scenic.  A mid handicapper,  such as me, can get round with the same ball as teed up on  the first. The greens are full of challenge yet are not running so fast as to make them cruel.  I would play it a gain in a second, at a realistic price.

[Mark Chaplin]

Has anyone looked at the size of the home market for top end golf without pedigree?

Scotland and Ireland are awash with top end golf courses and hotel complexes and some extremely well known ones are clearly in need of a little cash. I refer to the heavily discounted offer currently at OH as an example.

What we need over here are more decent layouts in the £75-£100 market.

[Anthony Gray]

iI ponied up and played Castle Stuart this past August.  I drove down form Dornoch on the off day during the Shield.
I loved the golf course.  It was a fun day.  The golf shots are at times thrilling, almost always scenic.  A mid handicapper,  such as me, can get round with the same ball as teed up on  the first. The greens are full of challenge yet are not running so fast as to make them cruel.  I would play it a gain in a second, at a realistic price.

  Stan,

  Is it top 100?

  Anthony

[David_Tepper]

Mark Chaplin -

There are CS green fees available at 90 pounds for residents of Scotland and 50 pounds for residents of the Highlands:

http://www.castlestuartgolf.com/scottish-resident-fee.html

DT