Played Castle Stuart for the second time

[Mitch Hantman]

I recently played Castle Stuart, and as this was my second time playing it, it gave me an interesting viewpoint on the strategies of the course.  I loved it the first time I played it, and enjoyed it even more after seeing it a second time, with some different wind directions, playing conditions, and naturally, different tee shot positions.  I am convinced that the details in the shaping of the ground, especially near the greens, is nothing less than exceptional.  It was about as much FUN as any course I can remember playing. 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mitch

The real and only test is always to play the course, which I have not, nor likely to do in the near future. Nevertheless, when I look at the photos I am still disappointed with the sleepers, parts of sleepers and the poor unlevel top finish of said sleepers. All to make it exactly what it is not.

Quite rightly, Mitch these are just minor cosmetic dislikes of a few of us and  should not really interfere with the enjoyment of the course. Pleased you found it more fun the second time round. Given the opportunity, I prefer to play two rounds per day on the same course, rather that space the round, but that’s not always possible.

How busy was it and what are the actual Green Fees for the day & round?

Melvyn   

[Mitch Hantman]

Melvyn,

Hard to gauge how busy it was as I arrived in the afternoon, but it seemed busy without seeming crowded.  Once we teed off, we never saw anyone in front or behind us, but there were plenty of golfers milling about before we teed off, as well as after we finished.  There is a feeling of isolation between holes, due to a ridge of elevation separating the lower and upper parts of the course. 

As for the green fees, they were 150 pounds for the round.  Locals pay less - 50 pounds.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Thanks Mitch

Did you take any photos?

Melvyn

[Anthony Gray]

  Mitch,

  Thank you for your input. What other courses does it remin you of?

  Thanks...Anthony

[Mitch Hantman]

Melvyn, I didn't take any photos.  I rarely do that when I play a course.

Anthony, Not sure which course it reminds me of.  It is a true original work.  I will think about that one, and if I think of one, I'll post. 

[DMoriarty]

Mitch

The real and only test is always to play the course, which I have not, nor likely to do in the near future. Nevertheless, when I look at the photos I am still disappointed with the sleepers, parts of sleepers and the poor unlevel top finish of said sleepers. All to make it exactly what it is not.

As for the golf course, I've heard there are only sleepers in a few bunkers, something like two or three.   Perhaps you are overplaying this issue by many magnitudes?

[David_Tepper]

I have every expectation that Castle Stuart, barring a prolonged global depression, will prove to be the most successful golf course development in Britain, both artistically and commercially, since WWII.

[Melvyn Morrow]

David (Mor)

“Perhaps you are overplaying this issue by many magnitudes?” 

I just love it, after the verbal battles your and TomP had on the Merion Threads between talking about the actual issues, you accuse me of overplaying the sleeper issue.

Many of us do not like our courses to look contrived, preferring them to be honest and straightforward. We don’t need or like the Chocolate Box look. As a recent TV advert in this country we require “It does exactly what it says on the tin".

As for the sleepers its total overkill, they are everywhere and worst still left uneven, yet when as previously mentioned re the old photos you posted all the old sleepers were finished in a uniform horizontal manner. Yes, it’s just the odd bunker that received the old age treatment, but how many self-respecting Green Keeper on here would keep their bunkers full of old rotten bits of sleepers. It would, I have thought been repaired or removed before the Greens Committee complained about the state of the bunker(s) and the faith they put in their Green Keeper.

I don’t believe it’s our way of doing things here in GB&I and after all, the intention is to sell/market a Scottish course to the world. Think someone make a minor error, but maybe understanding the Overseas market it was a deliberate ploy to attract the uninitiated to the Scottish game. Who knows?
I just don’t see the need to fake things and certainly not try to age a new course.

However, let’s move on, leaving it that you perhaps accept the look, I don’t. The important bit is how good is the course, which from reports seem to be rather above average for a new course. I hope all goes well at Castle Stuart and that the odd pieces of wood are soon removed, because the photos do display a very interesting course. The Castle Stuart location is far more appropriate than the Links Trust site for the Castle Course, so I do wish it well.

Melvyn 

[Niall C]

I have every expectation that Castle Stuart, barring a prolonged global depression, will prove to be the most successful golf course development in Britain, both artistically and commercially, since WWII.

David

I've noticed that you are a leading supporter of CS which is fair enough but I think your statement above might be taking things too far. Artistically perhaps, but that is in the eye of the beholder. Most commercially successful ? I have my doubts. While hoping that it will do well and being fairly confident it will, I can't help but think that the demographics and relative remoteness are going to stop it beating Kingsbarns or even the Castle Course for example.

Niall 

[Mark Pearce]

David,

Like Niall I suspect it will have its work cut out to be more succesful than Kingsbarns or Turnberry, which in my book counts as a post war development.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Melvyn- In many forms of architecture things are faked to make things appear older, it is the done thing. If you are creating say a barn extension, you would choose reclaimed materials in the form of wood, doors, tiles in order that the creation moulds with the landscape quicker. Architects that are creating minimalist golf works are trying to create an old fashioned look.

[Mark Chaplin]

Surely one of the reasons Kinsbarns is so commercially successful is it's proximity to St.Andrews and the guaranteed hordes of golfers attracted  to the area. It will be a considerably harder sell to get golfers to visit CS for top money when it's not close to anything decent - Dornoch, Aberdeen and Cruden Bay still being a tidy distance away.

[Mark Pearce]

Melvyn- In many forms of architecture things are faked to make things appear older, it is the done thing. If you are creating say a barn extension, you would choose reclaimed materials in the form of wood, doors, tiles in order that the creation moulds with the landscape quicker. Architects that are creating minimalist golf works are trying to create an old fashioned look.

Adrian, if you were doing a barn extension you would be choosing materials to match the barn you were extending.  If CS was an extension of an existing 9 holes, say, your point would be a good one.  But it's not.  It's a new course with no need to match anything.  Have you got a better example?

[Tony_Muldoon]

Melvyn- In many forms of architecture things are faked to make things appear older, it is the done thing. If you are creating say a barn extension, you would choose reclaimed materials in the form of wood, doors, tiles in order that the creation moulds with the landscape quicker. Architects that are creating minimalist golf works are trying to create an old fashioned look.

Adrian, if you were doing a barn extension you would be choosing materials to match the barn you were extending.  If CS was an extension of an existing 9 holes, say, your point would be a good one.  But it's not.  It's a new course with no need to match anything.  Have you got a better example?

Mark, Adrian mentions many and here's one.  Over time Copper on the outside of a building will turn green -"Verdigris".   Often the Architect and Developer will treat the copper on a new building with Acid to achieve the change of colour immediately- specifically to make it look old. Then having got the exact look they like, it is then lacquered to preserve it as a perfect fake.


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE can we get over a few undoubtedly fake sleepers at CS.  I bet Parsinen and Hanse are having good laugh at this and that was probably their intention from the start.  The few people I’ve met who played Kingsbarns and weren’t blown away by it mutter something about it being too new looking. Well they fixed that and unlike other ‘problems’ with new golf courses this will be a cheap one to ‘correct’ if they so choose. Guys lets credit them for knowing a thing or two about building superior golf courses..

As Melvyn alludes to if you want a thread on fake, then lets take the Links Trust to task for building their new, so called, ‘Links’ course on clay meaning it has to be closed for a couple of months each winter or the cat will truly be out of the bag.

Castle Stuart seems to be about so much more than a few details that the original thread showed in photo’s. Thanks for giving your impression Mitch.

Sounds like a great place to me.

  It was about as much FUN as any course I can remember playing. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Melvyn- In many forms of architecture things are faked to make things appear older, it is the done thing. If you are creating say a barn extension, you would choose reclaimed materials in the form of wood, doors, tiles in order that the creation moulds with the landscape quicker. Architects that are creating minimalist golf works are trying to create an old fashioned look.

Adrian, if you were doing a barn extension you would be choosing materials to match the barn you were extending.  If CS was an extension of an existing 9 holes, say, your point would be a good one.  But it's not.  It's a new course with no need to match anything.  Have you got a better example?

Mark- Say if you were building a new barn, it is quite common for the council giving permission to insist on reclaimed pan tiles as they have the algae and scars on. I completed two buildings, one a clubhouse where the council insisted and one where a different council did not, with a large building the new tiles stand out and are very dominant. So the point I was trying to make really ( I should not have said extension) sometimes there is a need to make new buildings fit into the surrounds and make them look older.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I have heard nothing but praise for CS and to my eye it looks great. ALL NEW GOLF COURSES ARE FAKE. but so what. IMO if CS does not work commercially the reason will be its position, logistics of getting there coupled with the weather and restricted playing times. Kingsbarns on the other hand is already a success, its location is superb. A lot of pro's tell me the greens are too wild but thats the only negative and there are mainly positives about it. From photos Castle Stuart to me looks the better.

[Sean_A]

Melvyn- In many forms of architecture things are faked to make things appear older, it is the done thing. If you are creating say a barn extension, you would choose reclaimed materials in the form of wood, doors, tiles in order that the creation moulds with the landscape quicker. Architects that are creating minimalist golf works are trying to create an old fashioned look.

Adrian, if you were doing a barn extension you would be choosing materials to match the barn you were extending.  If CS was an extension of an existing 9 holes, say, your point would be a good one.  But it's not.  It's a new course with no need to match anything.  Have you got a better example?

Mark, Adrian mentions many and here's one.  Over time Copper on the outside of a building will turn green -"Verdigris".   Often the Architect and Developer will treat the copper on a new building with Acid to achieve the change of colour immediately- specifically to make it look old. Then having got the exact look they like, it is then lacquered to preserve it as a perfect fake.


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE can we get over a few undoubtedly fake sleepers at CS.  I bet Parsinen and Hanse are having good laugh at this and that was probably their intention from the start.  The few people I’ve met who played Kingsbarns and weren’t blown away by it mutter something about it being too new looking. Well they fixed that and unlike other ‘problems’ with new golf courses this will be a cheap one to ‘correct’ if they so choose. Guys lets credit them for knowing a thing or two about building superior golf courses..

As Melvyn alludes to if you want a thread on fake, then lets take the Links Trust to task for building their new, so called, ‘Links’ course on clay meaning it has to be closed for a couple of months each winter or the cat will truly be out of the bag.

Castle Stuart seems to be about so much more than a few details that the original thread showed in photo’s. Thanks for giving your impression Mitch.

Sounds like a great place to me.

  It was about as much FUN as any course I can remember playing. 

Tony

What?  Am I to take it that Kingsbarns closes for a few months every winter?

Ciao

[Brian Phillips]

Sean,

Kingsbarns has closed down for winter every year since it opened.  I always had the impression you were a Course Superintendent, are you not?

[Tony_Muldoon]

I am happy to be set straight on this if I've got it wrong.

My take.

Kingsbarns developed by a private individual to resemble an east coast linksland with a sand based soil. Plays like a links.  Apparently shut each winter?


Castle course developed by the Links Trust and packaged as one of St Andrews Courses even thought by any reasonable definition it’s outside the town and away from the other six courses. Soil clay based, hence need to shut down each winter.


They are both fakes.  One is touched by marketers offering authenticity by association and is offered as the real deal. The other is commonly acknowledged as a triumph.   I have visited both but played neither and have one of them on each of the following lists.


A   Must play.

B    Not getting my money.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Kingsbarns has closed down for winter every year since it opened.  I always had the impression you were a Course Superintendent, are you not?

Brian
A super?  Where did you get that idea? 

I am astonished that Kingsbarns closes in the winter.  That is most unusual and if necessary to maintain reasonable standards I can't understand how folks don't think this a serious drawback in a land of year round golf. 

Ciao 

[Brian Phillips]

They use the time to give the greens a break and normally to pick all the Poa out of the greens.  I not sure it was so successful last winter as the greens have apparently been full of poa this year.

Sorry, I just always had the impression that you were a Super.  Please take that as a compliment!

[Bill_McBride]

Surely one of the reasons Kinsbarns is so commercially successful is it's proximity to St.Andrews and the guaranteed hordes of golfers attracted  to the area. It will be a considerably harder sell to get golfers to visit CS for top money when it's not close to anything decent - Dornoch, Aberdeen and Cruden Bay still being a tidy distance away.

Nairn is right there.  With Dornoch only 75 minutes north, I think Castle Stuart just enhances a golf vacation opportunity.  Plus Inverness airport is right there with reasonable Easy Jet flights from the London airports.  I would say this new course might double the attractiveness of the Inverness - Dornoch golf experience.

Unfortunately it might also cost Tain a lot of play for those looking for another course, if value for money is not a major objective.

[Brian Phillips]

We have used yoghurt on rocks to encourage the moss to make the new blasted rock look old....shoot me...

[Jamie Barber]

Why not? It's standard practice in conservation building work. My step father replaced an oak door on the Westgate towers in Canterbury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westgate,_Canterbury) - they were only allow to do so after beating it with a hammer and heavy chains for several hours to "age" it.