"Bottle" option on Yale's Third Hole

[Colin Sheehan]

A few months back, the starter at the Yale course mentioned to the team how John Daly and others played the third hole during the Hogan Tour event in the early 1990s by driving across the pond to the fourth fairway. Yesterday, I watched one of the longer hitters on the team take that option. It is a longer drive to be sure, which includes carrying trees and water, but the fairway is wide with its own balance of strategy. The closer to the water, the shorter the second shot. In his case yesterday, he left himself a 180 yard second shot with a full view of the green and flag, something that isn't available by playing the conventional route. It's not an option for everyone, or something I would recommend a player do every time, but it is a legitimate option and watching Seve (his real name) take that route made the hole feel like some reverse-version cousin to Mackenzie's contest-winning Lido hole. Perhaps someone can post an google earth image of those two holes and illustrate the option.
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is the reward worth the risk ?

The 3rd hole is a fairly short hole isn't it ?

[Colin Sheehan]

The option had never dawned on me or anyone on the team until the starter mentioned it. The reward is full sight of the pin and green. Some of the players don't like the hybrid, half three-wood option down the regular fairway. That can be an uncomfortable shot sometimes. As we discussed the option while playing the hole, it becomes more compelling if there is a strong left to right wind. The only way to make a mess of that hole is to push/slide a drive that catches the fairway's side slope which deflects the ball into the hazard. It really isn't that much of a challenge to reach the fourth fairway. Plus as the player noted, he got to leave his bag in the landing area and walk with his putter and driver.

[Mike Sweeney]

I hear a new John Daly story about Yale every year.   I am not buying this one either. I think Ray (the Starter) saw you coming on this one!

[Jim_Kennedy]

It could be a fun way to play the hole, but there is no difference in the yardage, you'd need to hit the same club to either fairway.
 

[Colin Sheehan]

It's shorter down the conventional route. Long iron, hybrid, 3-wood. It's only a driver hole over the pond. So it does play longer.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Colin,
You said your fellow competitor had 180 in from the 4th, that's the same club you'd use from the tee to get to the optimal spot on the 3rd fwy.

You do run out of fairway at 260 yards going down #4, and a shot of 260 leaves the same yardage 'in' as a hybrid/3 wd shot down #3, roughly 120 yards or so.

There's almost no danger when staying on your side of the road, but much more when crossing lanes. It does sound like a fun way to play the hole.
 

[John Mayhugh]

I guess it's possible to play the hole using the fourth fairway, but seems you would really need to dislike the blind approach to take on the added risk (and walk). 

It's about 275 yards to the indicated landing area on the fourth.  Approach would be in the 140 yard range, same as from the conventional route only in that case the tee shot is more like 220 or 230yds.

 

[Colin Sheehan]

John,
Thank you for posting that image.

People shouldn't underestimate the difficulty of the tee shot down the normal way. It's very easy to "hang" a three-wood and have the ball race down the hill into the hazard. That happens often. For a college player, the option over the water isn't particularly challenging. And the 180 yard the player had yesterday was because he half-blocked his drive. It was on the far end of second shot distances one would have. The middle of that landing area--which looks very generous from that aerial image, by the way--is more like 140 yards. The player who makes the choice to go right is less concerned with distance for second shot than he is about seeing the green and flagstick for his second shot. 

[Mike Sweeney]

Did Seve ever say if he plays it that way in competition ?

I remain skeptical of the Daly story. Scott Ramsey took a bunch of trees out of that area that you have to drive over. In 1991 it had to be much thicker than what is there today.

[Anthony Fowler]

Others have implied this, but I think I'll just come out and say it.  There's no way that this is the optimal play on this hole, even for John or Seve.  

3 at Yale is not a difficult hole, especially for someone who has played the hole a number of times and knows the correct lines.  I know that I'd rather hit a 130 shot to a blind green than a 180 shot to a visible green and I think most of the Yale team would feel the same way.

I can't let this discussion go by without noting that 3 is a terrible golf hole because Yale decided that they wanted to add length to their course.  Specifically, I think it's a bad hole because every (reasonable) tee shot leaves a blind approach to a flat, boring green.  There are no (reasonable) options and no strategic interest to speak of.  They should move the green back to its original (cape) location and let it play as a shorter but better hole.

[JeffTodd]

I'll confess to having unintentionally played #3 in that fashion, after hitting a rather horrible block/slice in a crosswind and using every ounce of my telepathic powers to urge the ball safely to the other side. Having barely cleared the water it was a short iron (I think I recall hitting a 9 iron or PW) to the green from what would be the right rough of bottle on #4. My only saving grace was hitting a remarkably good approach from there, prompting a member waiting on #4 tee (past whom I needed to complete my walk of shame back to #3) to remark that:

A) He'd never seen anyone play the hole that way before.

and

B) Upon learning that it was unintentional, he couldn't understand how anyone who could hit a tee shot that poorly could follow it with second shot so good.

While it was nice, and certainly unusual, to have an unobstructed view of #3 green on the approach, I can't imagine that the additional risk of the tee shot would make that option, and that walk, the ideal play.

[Tim Gavrich]

It's an interesting concept but practically speaking, a dopey idea in my opinion.  If you hit a good drive, you'll only have about 120 yards in.  Yeah, it's a blind shot, but when made to choose between a 180 yard shot over water to a visible green and a 120 yard blind shot, the vast, vast majority of golfers would choose the latter.

I'd be ecstatic to see the 3rd green restored to it's original size.

[Colin Sheehan]

Anthony,
I disagree that Yale's third is a terrible hole. It wasn't really lengthened, by the way. The right half of the double punchbowl green never drained and was constantly soggy. So in their poor judgement they pushed it into the water. It wasn't a function of adding length.

Seve used three-wood this morning in his effort to try that route again. He had 140 yards. Yes, you would rather have 130. Others don't mind 140 with a view. Seve may be a much stronger iron player than you are, so he's not daunted with 170 or so. I don't think anyone is suggesting its an optimal route. It is legitimate, in my mind. Have you played the third hole with a strong cross wind in a medal competition? The normal tee shot is not an easy one.

While the present third green isn't great. It isn't flat or boring either. It pitches rather quickly from the left to the right. There is a reward for favoring the right and short sides of pin locations to leave an uphill putt. I'd be happy to host you for a round in the future if you think my comments unfairly contradict yours.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I have to go with Sweeney Mike on this one.  Back in 1992 that area was one big bramble.  It was a "veritable wilderness" to those of us who got our history from the old yardage book, except when we topped one.  I don't recall anyone calling it "veritable" when that happened.  To steal another word from The Book -- apropos given how hard it was to figure out where to go! -- in those situations we "hewed" but rarely with success.

I bet when they cleared that area they found one million balls. 

Also, the only Daly story I heard back then was of him driving the 11th.  Which was pretty impressive -- even though I managed to drive it from the (original) whites.  (The white and blue tees were repositioned through the course c. 1996.)

This said, there were some really crazy angles out there if you were of a creative bent.  One classmate used to drive the 14th, this in the days of persimmon.  He teed the ball on a scoring pencil.  We used to fall apart when he did it.  How many ever thought of that hole as a "2 or 20"?

(He was really smart.  He wrote a computer program of the course so we could "play" during winter and internships.  At least until someone uploaded Doom in the computer lab.  Do colleges still have "computer labs"?)

Regarding the 3rd, I liked bombing it down the right and short of or, in dry years, all the way into the bunker, a curious form of "success," but with genuine failure to deal with on the right, such assessments were relative.  Eventually I found a lesser wood towards the right side of the hill seemed to work -- but that got wrecked the day I played with a bunch of smarty pants med students, 3rd-years probably, who berated my inane "strategy." Thus chastened, I played the hole 5-iron / 7-iron, and where is the fun in that?  I will add that was the day I totaled my sister's car on the way to the course, very nearly missing my tee time, and so my opinion of the med students may be compromised.

My opinion of the 3rd however is not.  It is more fun than Doom!

Mark

[Mike Sweeney]

Seve used three-wood this morning in his effort to try that route again. He had 140 yards.

Colin,

I used to jack up a three pointer occasionally in basketball practice back in the day. During a game is a whole different kettle of fish. There are a bunch of guys here that can play golf better than me. When Seve does it in a competition, then let's talk.

To me, this is similar to people saying that the Pros will go for the 7th and 8th greens at Merion. Maybe we can get a few reports next weekend from Merion on if any of the Walker Cuppers go for it, but I just don't see any of these as real options in a serious competition. As a GCA trick shot to show someone the craziness of Yale, sure.

[Colin Sheehan]

Sorry Mike. Maybe I wasn't clear. Seve tried it for the first time yesterday. And for the second time this morning. It has yet to become a "thing to do," nor do I think it ever will. Just something a senior is enjoying doing after playing the course 300 times, and what someo are failing to see is it's a FUN shot over the trees into another hole's fairway. Tomorrow is the Borsodi Student Championship; perhaps he tries it during a proper qualifying/tournament. It's not a crazy option.

By the way, during last year's Ivy League Championship at Atlantic City, the players began choosing the 9th fairway on the 10th tee shot. It was rumored to be an option during the practice round, and by the third round more than 60% were choosing the "alterate route."  It is a much more direct route to the green with a wider landing aera. Perhaps they should plant a "Hinkle Tree" to prevent that from happening in the future. Things like this only work when groups aren't coming up the opposing hoole. It worked at ACCC because the men were starting on 10 and the women, who were starting on 1, had yet to begin coming up nine. Otherwise, it's just becomes a cluster-f#%$.

[Mike Sweeney]

Colin,

Not sure how long you have been around GCA.com but if you search for "Reverse Jans" you will see that playing #3 at Yale via the 4th fairway is pretty tame in comparison to how some around here amuse themselves. I may sneak up to Yale on Sunday and will take a closer look if I do. Thanks

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

As I mentioned in another thread, anyone can play a hole anyway they want when it doesn't count, when it's not under the gun.

As Bobby Jones stated, "There's golf and then there's tournament golf"

I played a neat little "Bottle" hole recently at Metuchen.

All it needs is for the centerline bunkers to be deeper, more ominous, with flanking bunkers on the left of the fairway.