Nicklaus Courses

[David_Madison]

I'm a member at Governors Club, and I agree that it is good, maybe very good. When it opened around 1990, it was an absolute beast. Now all the par-5's are readily reachable and the long par-4's are at best mid-short irons when there's any roll. The course is very well balanced, with as much benefit from drawn shots as fades, but there's not much of a need for a ground game into any green except for one hole. On the approach shots, there's a greater need for hitting the ball the correct distance on the correct side of the cup, rather than being dead-on straight at the hole. As much as Nicklaus has been criticized for building courses that suited his game (the high fade thing) I believe that the aspect of his game that he really built into the course was the demand for distance control. And there's a fair amount of internal contour on some of the greens, more than at most of his earlier efforts. Most of the greens are set at 45 degree angles to the fairway, so the greens play very shallow and there's a lot of instant death for pretty minor misses if the shot is not hit to the correct side.

I've played somewhere around 15-20 Nicklaus courses. My favorites are Harbour Town, Sebonack, and The Concession, where I guess he gets partial credit as in each case he partnered up with another architect. Castle Pines and Mayacama are my favorite solo efforts, and I remember the Renegade Course at Desert Mountain being pretty unique with the two greens on each hole.

[Matt_Ward]

Ken:

I am not saying Sycamore Hills is a bad course. What I am saying is that the design elements you see there have been met and exceeded by the current grouping of siuperior Nicklaus courses that have recently opened in say the last 5-10 years.

Let me ask you this -- would you place Syacamore Hills among the top ten in all of Indiana as of 2009 soon to be 2010?

The bar for quality golf is quite high in the Hooser State and possibly those who see it frequently like Chris Clouser can weigh in with his thoughts too.

Ken, Jack designed a number of courses in that time frame that fit the kind of bill Sycamore Hills presents -- it's the others of that time such as Shoal Creek (1976), Castle Pines (1982) which I see as better overall designs for that relative era of his efforts. In his own comments in CG, Doak did specify that he had not played the course as of the original printing of the book -- but that from the pics he had seen the course looked to be "fairly dull parkland terrain" -- "with mid-1980's vintage Nicklaus-style terraced greens."

For me Sycamore Hills was quite special when it hit the scene during its opening and immediately thereafter. I have played a good grouping of Nicklaus courses since then and it's apparent to me that Jack has clearly evolved beyond what you saw from his efforts back then.

Ken, there's no doub the course received a boost from the top tier condition that were present when it opened and likely have continued through to this day. I'd be curiious to know what other Nicklaus courses you have played and how Sycamore Hills fares when held against that listing.

Thanks ...

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
I wouldn't describe myself as a huge fan of Sycamore Hills, but its easily in my top ten in Indiana. I'd put it 5th of what I've played, well behind Wolf Run and Victoria National and then also behind Crooked Stick and South Bend CC. Its not too far ahead of the Ross Course at French Lick.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Thanks ... I'll be very much interested in what Chris C offers on the Hooiser front.

I have played both Victoria National and Wolf Run -- I can see both of those courses making a strong case for top 100 consideration in an overall category of classic and modern courses.

Like I said before -- what Team Nicklaus is producing now is much more consistent and often times more strategic and elaborate in terms of their routing and hole variety than from years past. I will post info on the newest Nicklaus opening -- Red Ledges which opened this past July in Heber City, UT -- in a word -- fantastic !

[Ken Fry]

Ken:

I am not saying Sycamore Hills is a bad course. What I am saying is that the design elements you see there have been met and exceeded by the current grouping of siuperior Nicklaus courses that have recently opened in say the last 5-10 years.

Let me ask you this -- would you place Syacamore Hills among the top ten in all of Indiana as of 2009 soon to be 2010?

The bar for quality golf is quite high in the Hooser State and possibly those who see it frequently like Chris Clouser can weigh in with his thoughts too.

Ken, Jack designed a number of courses in that time frame that fit the kind of bill Sycamore Hills presents -- it's the others of that time such as Shoal Creek (1976), Castle Pines (1982) which I see as better overall designs for that relative era of his efforts. In his own comments in CG, Doak did specify that he had not played the course as of the original printing of the book -- but that from the pics he had seen the course looked to be "fairly dull parkland terrain" -- "with mid-1980's vintage Nicklaus-style terraced greens."

For me Sycamore Hills was quite special when it hit the scene during its opening and immediately thereafter. I have played a good grouping of Nicklaus courses since then and it's apparent to me that Jack has clearly evolved beyond what you saw from his efforts back then.

Ken, there's no doub the course received a boost from the top tier condition that were present when it opened and likely have continued through to this day. I'd be curiious to know what other Nicklaus courses you have played and how Sycamore Hills fares when held against that listing.

Thanks ...

Matt,

I would certainly place Sycamore among the top ten courses in Indiana.  My top ten in the state in no particular order looks like this:

Warren at Notre Dame
Wolf Run
Crooked Stick
Victoria National
The Fort
Harrison Hills
Sycamore Hills
Rock Hollow
South Bend CC
Prairie View

My sampling of courses doesn't include Purdue, any course from French Lick (you REALLY have to want to go there.  You don't just "swing by"), any casino course, Purgatory and Sultan's Run to name a few other well known or "ranked" courses.  I have played places like Sagamore Club, Brickyard, Broadmoor, CC of Indianapolis, Otter Creek and Heartland Crossing to name a group people might recognize.

I played Nicklaus' Sagamore Club outside Indy and was not impressed.  Yes it's very hard.  I didn't care for the routing (felt claustrophobic) and honestly expected more.  I think it falls very short of Sycamore Hills.

As I can't speak of Shoal Creek nor Castle Pines, I'm aware of his "period courses" and what was accomplished on each.  Another horrible example is the Bear course at Grand Traverse Resort.  Jack did what the owner wanted.  Build the hardest golf course you can.  Jack obliged and the place has been hated since.

I know Doak doesn't think highly of most of his early work and I read his assessment of Sycamore Hills.  I believe with the club and ball technology available today, the course is very playable and fun (it use to play much longer with the older equipment).  The property is certainly more than "dull, parkland terrain."

The Nicklaus courses I've played?  Sycamore, Bear's Best in Vegas, Sagamore Club, Bear at Grand Traverse and Harbor Shores in Benton Harbor, Michigan (10 holes are open now with grand opening next summer).

Harbor Shores is an interesting project I commented on a month or so ago.  I was very impressed with the work being done there but must admit the greens will be more than most players can handle.  Nicklaus' greens have certainly moved away from the terraced look with fall offs and collection areas to more wild internal contouring, but I was not prepared for what's been put down at Harbor Shores.

Thanks for your note back.

Ken

[Matt_Ward]

Ken:

Thanks for the detailed response.

I think the issue for me about Sycamore Hills is that the present day Nicklaus has seen fit to be a bit more creative and more expansive in his design thoughts than from years ago. Syacmore Hills for me was more of the "same old Jack" and while it deserved high marks at the time it first appeared on the scene -- the issue is whether the course still represents the best of what Jack has since been able to bring forward.

I just finished playing one of Jack's latest layouts called Red Ledges in Heber City, UT. Here Jack has a faciility in top shape, with incredible views and has seen fit to be much broader in terms of his strategic inclusoins with the design so that the course is not just the same formulaic green designs with the same predictable bunker patterns, etc, etc.

Ken, to be honest -- I don't how many early Nicklaus designs can still say they have the legs to be included with the best of the best the Bear has done recently. Clearly, one can make a case with Muirfield Village because Jack has tweaked the course constantly since it's grand opening in 1974.

I believe if you were able to play a place like Red Ledges you would clearly see what Jack is doing now -- although the Bear won't likely admit it his tie to Doak with Sebonack no doubt has helped broaden his awareness level.

Thanks for your Indiana posting -- I have to say one of the more underrated states in the nation for quality golf is the Hoosier State. For a place that doesn't have the best of topography for the most part the depth of courses is indeed quite impressive.