Nicklaus Courses

[Martin Toal]

Partly by chance, partly by design, I have played a few Nicklaus courses over the years. I realise that there are differences in the extent of input from the great man (or his offspring), but setting that aside, on the whole, I have really enjoyed them.

The most recent example was Monte Rei, Portugal, http://www.monte-rei.com/ I would place this one top of the Portugal must play list.

Like other Nicklaus courses, it has holes where the challenge is apparent from the tee or fairway and the player has to make choices according to their ability. Monte Rei has some delightful holes, my favourites including the 13th and 15th.

Several years ago, I went on holiday to Cabo, and had an orgy of Nicklaus courses. The Ocean course at Cabo del Sol is the best known, and it was a lovely course indeed. However, I slightly preferred Eldorado http://www.eldoradogolfandbeachclub.com/golf/course_tour/

Palmilla was also good, but the third of three for me.

In Spain, I also like Montecastillo, near Jerez. http://www.montecastilloresortjerez.com/

In the US, Pinehills, near Playmouth, MA, a Jackie Jr course is also pretty good. http://www.pinehillsgolf.com/index.php/nicklaus-course.html

[Chris_Clouser]

I've seen three Nicklaus courses.  Muirfield Village is probably a top 25 caliber course for the US.  Sycamore Hills I saw over 15 years ago and from what I understand they have done some stuff to the course, but what was there before was fine but was overrated.  His newest course in Indiana is Sagamore and is two miles from my house.  I saw this course be built going out almost any weekend I could to see what they had done over the prior week.  The course is nice, but I wouldn't put it in the top ten courses in the state unlike some published ratings have it. 

[Jason Topp]

The ones I can think of that I have played

Desert Highlands - terrific desert course - very demanding on the low draw iron shots I tend to hit. 

La Paloma - only played a couple of times 20 years ago.  I recall it had a reputation as extremely difficult but my reaction was that it was not as tough as I feared.

Desert Mountain - Chiricaua - I enjoyed it but did not love the course as much as some

Bear Path - pretty mundane housing course.  I like it for stroke play competitions but I like bland golf for stroke play.

Reynolds Plantation - Great Waters - I really enjoyed it one time around 15 years ago.

Kiawah - the course designed by Nicklaus - Not remotely in the same class as the Ocean course (couldn't be because it it through housing) but I thought it was vastly superior to the Fazio there and most would probably like it better than the Cougar course.

Old Works - better story than golf course.  I drove from Bozeman to play it and would probably have been better off just playing the local course.



Overall - I enjoy his courses but generally do not think they are worth paying premium prices to play.

[Shane Wright]

although I could do without all the McMansions, I thought Wynstone was a very enjoyable course to play - just outside Chicago.  It gets goofy at the end, but 1-16 was a lot of fun. 

[Matt_Ward]

The issue when Nicklaus courses are mentioned is a bit more complicated than many might imagine.

For example, how many Nicklaus courses has the person played? When did such courses open? Has the person played the more recent openings and then compared / contrasted them to those that opened earlier in Jack's career.

Frankly, I think the current crop of Nicklaus courses is superior on a consistent basis to what Jack did earlier. Many of the original courses were either too hard for across the board types or were really just dressed up versions of superior conditions (see Sycamore Hills) but overall lacking in terms of complexity and strategic requirements. Chris C is spot on when highlighting the nature of the depth of courses in the Hoosier State that are more compelling than SH in Fort Wayne.

Jason -- I agree Old Works won't be seen as one of America's finest public courses -- but when held against the likes of what Montana had had prior to it's opening it demonstrated plenty. No doubt the storyline of how it came into existence is a big part of the show when there -- but there are more than a few holes there which are quite good. In the context of national superior golf -- Old Works would not make the short list of affordable public courses I would recommend -- I would save that distinction for places like Four Mile Ranch in Canon City, CO, to name just one clear example.

[Peter Pallotta]

Off topic, and it's probably been mentioned many times before, but the interesting thing to me is that by the time Mr. Nicklaus decides to quit, he will have designed, what, about 300+ courses -- and I can't think of any other 'name' architects except for Donald Ross and Robert Trent Jones who can match that number.  It's kind of neat to think about the fact that one architect in the 20s-30-40s and one in the 50s-60s-70s+ and one in the 70s-80s-90s+ each created a 'model' that allowed them to create so many golf courses -- three different eras, three different methods, three different models...and for each, a mix-bag of results (but necessarily so, no?)...and for each, maybe a wholly different standard is required in order to judge (if judge we must).  Do you know what I think - what I think binds those three architects togther? I think it might be that deep-down, embedded at the core of their design philosophy, was the desire to promote the GAME of golf and extend its reach everywhere, with the ARCHITECTURE being not the foremost concern but mostly a VEHICLE for that promotion. Anyway, just a side-bar thought that occurred to me...but my hats off to Messrs Ross, Jones and Nicklaus -- the big picture guys, the ones with the long views, the industry builders. Very glad they were/are around.

Peter

[Stephen Brown]

May River Golf Club - Bluffton, SC

I believe a few will be making the trip to the Lowcountry to see this gem in November...I am excited to here the feedback from the group.

More info here: http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/may-river-golf-club

While serving as Caddie Manager at the club, I was fortunate enough to play MANY rounds of golf here, and grew to love the course.  The conditions in the winter are perfect. Firm and Fast due to not overseeding in the winter....rare for golf courses in these parts.

OT:  As a vegetarian, I have not tried one, but the reviews of the bacon wrapped hot dog make it a must!

Steve

[Joel_Stewart]

Peter:

If Donald Ross had a private jet and offices with staff around the world he probably would have the number of courses Nicklaus has.  The quantity is not relevant in todays world, especially when Nicklaus by contract sometimes has only to do 1-2 or 3 site visits.

I've played a few Nicklaus courses over the last few years and some are better then others.   He was terrible at Pasadera in Monterey and completely destroyed the 36 holes complex at Coyote Creek in San Jose with a bad remodel and a Florida style new course.  Mayacama is OK, vastly overrated but is OK and Old Greenwood in Lake Tahoe is just OK as well.

Dismal River is now undergoing another vast remodel.   I would love to hear his comments about how this course has changed in just a few years and if he is willing to admit the first version was a disaster.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

Help me out -- beyond the 13th hole at Dismal what were the other "disaster" elements there for you ?

By the way, I do agree that Coyote Creek is a mess and that Old Greenwood is simply OK -- more about the scenery than anything else.

[Kenny Baer]

Over the years I have been impressed by the majority of Nicklaus courses I have played. I would argue that he rarely builds anything bad, rarely builds anything great, and never builds anything just horrendous.  I recently played a golf course by Gary Player that was bizarre, I could never imagine Nicklaus building anything that poor; EVER.  

Out of the Nicklaus I have played I would say 80% were above average to pretty good golf courses; 5% were bad, and 5% were very good.  I have not played much of his recent work but I really like what he is trying to do; it seems as if he took quite a bit from Doak and their work at Sebonack.

[Richard Choi]

My favorite Nicklaus courses are The Challenge at Manele and Sherwood.

Manele is rollicking fun with wide fairways and rolling greens that actually invite ground games. Combined that with what may be the most beautiful ocean view in the world and you have one truly memorable round.

Sherwood is a solid challenge with some very good par 5's. I really liked the variety of short, long, left, and right holes. Really beautiful vistas with the rock hills as well.

[Mark Pritchett]

I agree with Kenny. Of the Nicklaus courses I have played they have been for the most part good, solid courses.  Some such as SH, a bit overrated, some like Great Waters a mixed bag of really good holes and many that underwhelmed and very good like Shoal Creek, Colleton River and Champions Retreat.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

I will correct my poor usage of words when I said that Coyote Creek is a "mess." Mea culpa on my part -- I meant to say that it's vastly overrated and overpriced for what one gets when playing there.

On another front -- I think the percentage of top draw Nicklaus courses has gone up considerably within the last 5-10 years. Give Jack his due -- he is evolving in his design thoughts with each new effort. A good example of this will be when I mention in deatil is dropdead home run effort with the new Red Ledges layout in Heber City, UT -- it replaces Glenwild for me as the top state in The Beehive State.

[Matt_Cohn]

Joel,

What was the history of Coyote Creek before Nicklaus came in? I've never heard about this.

[Greg Tallman]

Partly by chance, partly by design, I have played a few Nicklaus courses over the years. I realise that there are differences in the extent of input from the great man (or his offspring), but setting that aside, on the whole, I have really enjoyed them.

The most recent example was Monte Rei, Portugal, http://www.monte-rei.com/ I would place this one top of the Portugal must play list.

Like other Nicklaus courses, it has holes where the challenge is apparent from the tee or fairway and the player has to make choices according to their ability. Monte Rei has some delightful holes, my favourites including the 13th and 15th.

Several years ago, I went on holiday to Cabo, and had an orgy of Nicklaus courses. The Ocean course at Cabo del Sol is the best known, and it was a lovely course indeed. However, I slightly preferred Eldorado http://www.eldoradogolfandbeachclub.com/golf/course_tour/

Palmilla was also good, but the third of three for me.

In Spain, I also like Montecastillo, near Jerez. http://www.montecastilloresortjerez.com/

In the US, Pinehills, near Playmouth, MA, a Jackie Jr course is also pretty good. http://www.pinehillsgolf.com/index.php/nicklaus-course.html

Martin,

Please compare/contrast what it was/is you liked better about El Dorado.... let's start with the ocean holes.

17 & 18 (pre-redesign) at Dorado vs. 17 & 18 at Cabo del Sol - Not a fair fight

Par 3's as a group - No comparison

Par 5's - Ocean Course weak point... could give Dorado the nod here

Anyway I look forward to your comments as you are certainly not alone but I had a completely different opinion even prior to my affiliation with Cabo del Sol.

[Martin Toal]

Partly by chance, partly by design, I have played a few Nicklaus courses over the years. I realise that there are differences in the extent of input from the great man (or his offspring), but setting that aside, on the whole, I have really enjoyed them.

The most recent example was Monte Rei, Portugal, http://www.monte-rei.com/ I would place this one top of the Portugal must play list.

Like other Nicklaus courses, it has holes where the challenge is apparent from the tee or fairway and the player has to make choices according to their ability. Monte Rei has some delightful holes, my favourites including the 13th and 15th.

Several years ago, I went on holiday to Cabo, and had an orgy of Nicklaus courses. The Ocean course at Cabo del Sol is the best known, and it was a lovely course indeed. However, I slightly preferred Eldorado http://www.eldoradogolfandbeachclub.com/golf/course_tour/

Palmilla was also good, but the third of three for me.

In Spain, I also like Montecastillo, near Jerez. http://www.montecastilloresortjerez.com/

In the US, Pinehills, near Playmouth, MA, a Jackie Jr course is also pretty good. http://www.pinehillsgolf.com/index.php/nicklaus-course.html

Martin,

Please compare/contrast what it was/is you liked better about El Dorado.... let's start with the ocean holes.

17 & 18 (pre-redesign) at Dorado vs. 17 & 18 at Cabo del Sol - Not a fair fight

Par 3's as a group - No comparison

Par 5's - Ocean Course weak point... could give Dorado the nod here

Anyway I look forward to your comments as you are certainly not alone but I had a completely different opinion even prior to my affiliation with Cabo del Sol.

Greg

Maybe having heard about CdS but not El D, I had heightened expectations. I had no idea anyone here had a personal affiliation.

I played both in about November 2005 or so. El D benefits from having more change in elevation, if I recall correctly. That probably plays to the Nicklaus like of downhill shots more. Also, I said I only slightly preferred El D.

I thought the front 9 at El D was the better nine, especially the run of holes towards the end of the front nine. I also liked a run of holes in the middle of the back 9, with a longish par-4 up hill and a short par 5 with water on the left and bunkers in the right side of the driving aiming line.

To be honest, I don't really sceptically remember CdS that well. That is kinda part of the issue. I could describe most of the holes at El D, but few at CdS, really just those down by the ocean in the middle of the front nine.

What changes were made at either?

[Michael Blake]

Off topic, and it's probably been mentioned many times before, but the interesting thing to me is that by the time Mr. Nicklaus decides to quit, he will have designed, what, about 300+ courses -- and I can't think of any other 'name' architects except for Donald Ross and Robert Trent Jones who can match that number.

Peter,

I bet Art Hills is up there with maybe 200 under his belt.

[Ash Towe]

There is one Nicklaus course in New Zealand at Kinloch near Lake Taupo.  It was a signature course so there was quite a bit of input from the man himself.  It is a very tough challenge, in one local magazine there was a view that it was the toughest in the country.  There are only 3 sets of tees and people have to choose carefully.
I find it an interesting layout on my first and only visit but hoping to get back again soon.

[Greg Tallman]

Partly by chance, partly by design, I have played a few Nicklaus courses over the years. I realise that there are differences in the extent of input from the great man (or his offspring), but setting that aside, on the whole, I have really enjoyed them.

The most recent example was Monte Rei, Portugal, http://www.monte-rei.com/ I would place this one top of the Portugal must play list.

Like other Nicklaus courses, it has holes where the challenge is apparent from the tee or fairway and the player has to make choices according to their ability. Monte Rei has some delightful holes, my favourites including the 13th and 15th.

Several years ago, I went on holiday to Cabo, and had an orgy of Nicklaus courses. The Ocean course at Cabo del Sol is the best known, and it was a lovely course indeed. However, I slightly preferred Eldorado http://www.eldoradogolfandbeachclub.com/golf/course_tour/

Palmilla was also good, but the third of three for me.

In Spain, I also like Montecastillo, near Jerez. http://www.montecastilloresortjerez.com/

In the US, Pinehills, near Playmouth, MA, a Jackie Jr course is also pretty good. http://www.pinehillsgolf.com/index.php/nicklaus-course.html

Martin,

Please compare/contrast what it was/is you liked better about El Dorado.... let's start with the ocean holes.

17 & 18 (pre-redesign) at Dorado vs. 17 & 18 at Cabo del Sol - Not a fair fight

Par 3's as a group - No comparison

Par 5's - Ocean Course weak point... could give Dorado the nod here

Anyway I look forward to your comments as you are certainly not alone but I had a completely different opinion even prior to my affiliation with Cabo del Sol.

Greg

Maybe having heard about CdS but not El D, I had heightened expectations. I had no idea anyone here had a personal affiliation.

I played both in about November 2005 or so. El D benefits from having more change in elevation, if I recall correctly. That probably plays to the Nicklaus like of downhill shots more. Also, I said I only slightly preferred El D.

I thought the front 9 at El D was the better nine, especially the run of holes towards the end of the front nine. I also liked a run of holes in the middle of the back 9, with a longish par-4 up hill and a short par 5 with water on the left and bunkers in the right side of the driving aiming line.

To be honest, I don't really sceptically remember CdS that well. That is kinda part of the issue. I could describe most of the holes at El D, but few at CdS, really just those down by the ocean in the middle of the front nine.

What changes were made at either?

Martin,

All Ocean holes at Dorado were removed and are now housing. 8,9,17 and 18 no longer exist.

As for change in elevation I would be shocked if the change in elevation were not far greater on The Ocean Course (about 150 feet) than at EL Dorado.

You do not recall the final holes on The Ocean Course? Really?

Dorado does have/had some good holes, I like what used to be #10 alot and old #7 (now #18) the downhill dogleg right par 5 is pretty cool but overall the original Dorado was inferior to The Ocean Course IMHO.

[PCCraig]

although I could do without all the McMansions, I thought Wynstone was a very enjoyable course to play - just outside Chicago.  It gets goofy at the end, but 1-16 was a lot of fun. 

I agree Wynstone is pretty good...but I haven't played there in years. I do remember I liked the front nine alot more.

[Kyle Henderson]

I've played a few Nicklaus courses and I would rank them in the following order (roughly from 7 to 3 on the Doak scale):

Dismal River: 
Sherwood
Palmilla  (Ocean and Arroyo nines)
Diablo Grande- Legends
Ruby Hill



Joel,

What changes are the carrying out with regard to Dismal River. My inside source says that the only significant change this season was the repositioning of the back tees for #5.

[Martin Toal]

Martin,

All Ocean holes at Dorado were removed and are now housing. 8,9,17 and 18 no longer exist.

As for change in elevation I would be shocked if the change in elevation were not far greater on The Ocean Course (about 150 feet) than at EL Dorado.

You do not recall the final holes on The Ocean Course? Really?

Dorado does have/had some good holes, I like what used to be #10 alot and old #7 (now #18) the downhill dogleg right par 5 is pretty cool but overall the original Dorado was inferior to The Ocean Course IMHO.

Greg

Well, the removal of the ocean holes such as this one, would badly affect El D for sure.

[Ken Fry]

Frankly, I think the current crop of Nicklaus courses is superior on a consistent basis to what Jack did earlier. Many of the original courses were either too hard for across the board types or were really just dressed up versions of superior conditions (see Sycamore Hills) but overall lacking in terms of complexity and strategic requirements.

Matt,

Please elaborate if you could on the lack of strategic requirements at Sycamore Hills.  Over the last few years, I've played the course a handful of times and continue to be impressed with the routing and use of terrain.  There's a great variety to the holes.  The course has struck me as more than the hot but dumb prom queen and excels beyond "conditioning."

Ken

[Anthony Gray]

  I have played a handfull. Are they overly manicured and less "natural" on a whole?

  Anthony

[Tim Gavrich]

Our home course in Pawleys Island, Pawleys Plantation is a Nicklaus "Signature" course from 1988, which seems to have been the most ruthless time at his design career.  From the 7,026 yard tips, the course carries a 75.3 rating and a 146 slope.  However, it's a good test of golf with some (not an overabundance, I'll concede) good strategic opportunities.  I'd challenge anyone to find me a more controversial hole in the Nicklaus canon than the 13th at Pawleys Plantation.

I agree about the Nicklaus course at Pinehills--pretty, challenging, but merely solid overall.  I've heard pretty good things about his course at Bay Creek in Cape Charles, VA as well.  I really liked the nine holes (front side) I played at the Cliffs at Keowee Falls, especially the 7th, a spectacular downhill Redan-type hole.  The only other Nicklaus course I can think of right now is the Governors Club in Chapel Hill, NC, which I would say is very good but not great.