Better in the beginning than in the end

[David Stamm]

Typically, an architect's work becomes better, more refined, as he does more courses and evolves. Which architects do you feel put out better work in the beginning of their careers as compared to the end?

[Bill_McBride]

Typically, an architect's work becomes better, more refined, as he does more courses and evolves. Which architects do you feel put out better work in the beginning of their careers as compared to the end?

Fownes, Crump, H. Wilson?  (The one hit wonders)

[Dan King]

I'm having trouble thinking of any of them that got better with age. Perhaps Pete Dye.

Cheers,
Dan King

The trick for the developer, as devised through his architect, is to build something that is photogenically stunning, however impractical, extravagant or absurd. Never mind the golfer, that most gullible of all citizens.
  --Peter Thompson

[David Stamm]

Typically, an architect's work becomes better, more refined, as he does more courses and evolves. Which architects do you feel put out better work in the beginning of their careers as compared to the end?

Fownes, Crump, H. Wilson?  (The one hit wonders)

No fair. You're not getting off that easy!

[Bill_McBride]

Typically, an architect's work becomes better, more refined, as he does more courses and evolves. Which architects do you feel put out better work in the beginning of their careers as compared to the end?

Fownes, Crump, H. Wilson?  (The one hit wonders)

No fair. You're not getting off that easy!

Asked and answered, your honor!

[David Stamm]

I'm having trouble thinking of any of them that got better with age. Perhaps Pete Dye.

Cheers,
Dan King

The trick for the developer, as devised through his architect, is to build something that is photogenically stunning, however impractical, extravagant or absurd. Never mind the golfer, that most gullible of all citizens.
  --Peter Thompson

Dan, would you not agree that Riviera and LACC were better than Marion and Whitemarsh Valley? Or CPC, RM and Pasa better than Alwoodley and Moortown, generally speaking? I'm by no means saying that the former courses are bad, but AM and GT had gotten better at their trades at the end, no?

[Bill_McBride]

I'm having trouble thinking of any of them that got better with age. Perhaps Pete Dye.

Cheers,
Dan King

The trick for the developer, as devised through his architect, is to build something that is photogenically stunning, however impractical, extravagant or absurd. Never mind the golfer, that most gullible of all citizens.
  --Peter Thompson

Dan, would you not agree that Riviera and LACC were better than Marion and Whitemarsh Valley? Or CPC, RM and Pasa better than Alwoodey and Moortown, generally speaking? I'm by no means saying that the former courses are bad, but AM and GT had gotten better at their trades at the end, no?

Alwoodley is a remarkably sophisticated course to have been designed by a novice and built 20+ years before the California and Australian wonders.

[David Stamm]

At the risk of upsetting Philip, and depending on your tastes in courses, could AWT's earlier courses be more appealing to some than his later, tougher "championship" courses?

[Dan King]

David Stramm writes:
Dan, would you not agree that Riviera and LACC were better than Marion and Whitemarsh Valley? Or CPC, RM and Pasa better than Alwoodey and Moortown, generally speaking? I'm by no means saying that the former courses are bad, but AM and GT had gotten better at their trades at the end, no?

I'm having trouble agreeing with you. First, because I've never seen Marion, Whitemarsh, Alwoodey, Moortown or RM. Second, what any of us see of any of the courses designed by Mackenzie and Thomas is what has survived. It is natural that their later work has a better chance of surviving than their earlier work.

If you look at most of the architects of today, where we can go and see much of their early and later works, often their product goes downhill. It isn't always their fault -- they start chasing the bigger commissions, but still I'd say of courses we can go and look at, it sure seems like the product suffers the later in their career. Is there something magical about the old timers that made them improve as they got older, while current ones degrade?

Cheers,
Dan King

They don't build courses for people. They build monuments to themselves.
 --George Archer (on modern golf architects)

[David Stamm]

I'm having trouble thinking of any of them that got better with age. Perhaps Pete Dye.

Cheers,
Dan King

The trick for the developer, as devised through his architect, is to build something that is photogenically stunning, however impractical, extravagant or absurd. Never mind the golfer, that most gullible of all citizens.
  --Peter Thompson

Dan, would you not agree that Riviera and LACC were better than Marion and Whitemarsh Valley? Or CPC, RM and Pasa better than Alwoodey and Moortown, generally speaking? I'm by no means saying that the former courses are bad, but AM and GT had gotten better at their trades at the end, no?

Alwoodley is a remarkably sophisticated course to have been designed by a novice and built 20+ years before the California and Australian wonders.

Bill, of this I have no doubt, and I can't wait to one day see them both, but you wouldn't say his work regressed, would you?

[Chip Gaskins]

Charles Blair Macdonald

Coore / Creenshaw

[Phil_the_Author]

David,

Why would anyone's taste in Tilly courses favoring his earlier ones over his later ones upset me?  He did sone very good work early on... not to mention later as well...

[Rich Goodale]

I'm having trouble thinking of any of them that got better with age. Perhaps Pete Dye.

Cheers,
Dan King

The trick for the developer, as devised through his architect, is to build something that is photogenically stunning, however impractical, extravagant or absurd. Never mind the golfer, that most gullible of all citizens.
  --Peter Thompson

The is some research that implies that creativity is at its highest in ages 20-30, dips signfiicantly at ages 30-50 and then climbs again from 50 until the onset of senility.  Of course, creativity is only one of the factors that leads to achievement, so there is hope for all of you in that age 30-50 black hole out there....

[Kalen Braley]

David,

Thats an interesting question because TD approaches it briefly in his book Anatomy of Golf.  His thoughts, IIRC, were that for many architects they do some of thier best stuff in the beginning because its new, fresh, and they are trying to make a name for themselves, so they pour thier heart and soul into it. Then as they go along they get busy, the work-load increases, the monotony of life sets in, etc, etc thier work is not as inspired. 

This would be interesting to see how many we can find to fit this category.

I'll throw a name out there...

Ted Robinson? 

[David Stamm]

This would be interesting to see how many we can find to fit this category.

I'll throw a name out there...

Ted Robinson? 

Kalen, I think this a very valid nomination. As much grief as he gets here, and I include myself amongst those they do so, his work in the beginning was better than his later work.

[Jason Topp]

[deleted]  I had it the wrong way around

[Wyatt Halliday]

I'm having trouble thinking of any of them that got better with age. Perhaps Pete Dye.

Cheers,
Dan King

Dan,

This is interesting. I was always under the impression that the exact opposite is true. I've played a handful of his courses, but none that predate the mid eighties. I've kinda always wondered just exactly what I've missed by not seeing the likes of The Golf Club and Crooked Stick to name two. I guess Harbour Town would also fall into the mix according to some.

Thanks,
Wyatt

[Bill_McBride]

I'm having trouble thinking of any of them that got better with age. Perhaps Pete Dye.

Cheers,
Dan King

The trick for the developer, as devised through his architect, is to build something that is photogenically stunning, however impractical, extravagant or absurd. Never mind the golfer, that most gullible of all citizens.
  --Peter Thompson

Dan, would you not agree that Riviera and LACC were better than Marion and Whitemarsh Valley? Or CPC, RM and Pasa better than Alwoodey and Moortown, generally speaking? I'm by no means saying that the former courses are bad, but AM and GT had gotten better at their trades at the end, no?

Alwoodley is a remarkably sophisticated course to have been designed by a novice and built 20+ years before the California and Australian wonders.

Bill, of this I have no doubt, and I can't wait to one day see them both, but you wouldn't say his work regressed, would you?

Not in the slightest, I would say it remained at a consistently high level from beginning to end.  Mackenzie was a routing and design genius.  His body of work is remarkably and consistently excellent.

I shoulda been a press agent.

[Garland Bayley]

On a similar note, how many of you think Kidd got a great piece of land at Bandon, and has been screwing it up ever since?

[Niall C]

I'm having trouble agreeing with you. First, because I've never seen Marion, Whitemarsh, Alwoodey, Moortown or RM. Second, what any of us see of any of the courses designed by Mackenzie and Thomas is what has survived. It is natural that their later work has a better chance of surviving than their earlier work.

Dan

Not sure if I agree with you there. As an architects career progresses he will generally pick up higher profile work with bigger budgets etc. Those very same clients are the type who will then at a later date bring someone else into revamp the course because they can, they have the budget etc while the earlier courses maybe don't have the budget.

To give an example MacK designed Pitreavie and Bonnyton here in Scotland and I would be surprised if much has changed. Compare that to his later courses such as Augusta National. Now how these earlier courses such as Pitreavie and Bonnyton compare to his later ones I couldn't say, as I've never played Royal Melbourne/Augusta National.......one day I hope !

Niall

[Tim Gavrich]

It was a tragically brief career, but popular opinion would put Mike Strantz in this category too.  His most widely-loved course is Caledonia, which was his first solo design.

[Cliff Hamm]

It was a tragically brief career, but popular opinion would put Mike Strantz in this category too.  His most widely-loved course is Caledonia, which was his first solo design.

Have never played it but certainly Monterey Peninsula, which was a drastic renovation by Stranz, has gotten tremendous accolades.  Hard therefore to say that his early work was better than at the end.

[Andy Troeger]

I certainly think Pete Dye did better work at the beginning of his career than his recent efforts. The Golf Club might still be his finest course design and Crooked Stick is towards the top of the list.

I also think Nicklaus' two best courses are Muirfield Village and Castle Pines. I like Valhalla and Sherwood better than his recent courses too.