[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

I'm curious, what are the strategic choices on that hole? I haven't played it, but other than hitting a 4 iron from the tee to the left somewhere I don't see any question marks.

Jim so you've only seen it in pictures then....

Yep...please enlighten me.

Jim,

Here's a start as Matt mentioned in his Lakota Canyon thread....I can list a few more things that he didn't mention if you'd like to know more:

The closing hole is a compelling strategic par-5 ender -- 557 yards from the tips and has been spoken about here a number of times. I think it's one of Engh's finest holes I have played -- the hole slides gently downhill from an elevated tee box and moves just as gently to the right. The more you can take on the right side the more favorable angle you get for your second shot. After a solid and well-placed tee shot the player has to decide if going for the green in two blows is doable. There is a bailout area to the far right and often that will be where the player decides to go.

The carry for the 2nd shot is a real visual terror scene. The very top of the pin is exposed to those back in the fairway and the slightest push to the right with one's second to the green will mean Elvis land -- as in deadsville. Should you pull the shot to the left the terrain on that side is quite steep and not all balls will release back down towards the green. The green is also quite narrow and deep when approached for a 2nd shot.

If you bail out right the short wedge shot is equally fraught with visual terror / demands. Too many times architects allow the bailout option to have an always e-z way out. That doesn't happen with Lakota's closer because the pitch must be totally precise and hit with total confidence.

[Tim Leahy]

1. Pebble
2. Kapalua Plantation
3. Riviera
4. Lake Chabot-Oakland, Ca, 673 yds, all downhill par 6

[Karl Kocher]

IMO, a great finisher should require some degree of stamina at the end of a hard fought match.  It should require precision off the tee with a DRIVER and a mid or long iron to the green, thus requiring the hardest two shots in ones bag, a well struck accurate tee ball and a mid or long iron to a difficult green...

In this case, the 18th at Merion is the best finisher.....from the almost back tee (not the new US open tee which is WAY back), drive to the top of the hill then long iron to a wide green that runs away from you and crowned....oh yeh, that runs 12+ on the Stimp from front to back and right to left....

Not even factoring in the historic nature of the approach.....

[Bill Brightly]

Pebble 18 is a great finisher.

It is interesting, in New Jersey, where I am from, many  of the top courses have bland finishing holes. As much as I like Ridgewood, all 3 9th holes are amog the weakest on the course.

The 18th at Plainfield is a poor finisher, and you know how I feel about 18 at Mountain Ridge

Baltustrol's 18th may be the best in NJ, considering it is a cool par 5 that can be reached in 2.

Hackensack's WILL be one of the best once we fully restore this road hole

[Tim Bert]

One thing that stood out to me when pondering the first hole and last hole questions posed here and on the other thread is that I much prefer opening holes to closing holes.

I didn't answer on the opener because there were too many great ones to choose from and I couldn't narrow it down.

I didn't respond on the closer hole because I can't think of one I truly adore that stands out from the rest. This thread has made realize I don't know what I am looking for in a closer.

Perhaps because I am much more looking forward to starting a round than I am finishing it, but I bet I could pretty easily name 10 opening holes that I prefer to my favorite closer (assuming I could eventually come up with the closer.)

[Jaeger Kovich]

My favorite hole #18.... Bethpage RED!!!

A par 4 that plays downhill from the tee. Avoid the big bunkers on the right which are tied into the side of the hill. Plays back up the hill to a green (forced carry) that sits in a nice hollow.

Great for match play because of forced carry to green.

The USGA would have loved to play this hole as #18 in the Open!!!... to long a walk from black 17 (300yds)


Runner up: Carnoustie, Kingsbarns finishes 3

[John Kirk]

To those who chose # 18 at Sand Hills, a question.

So you would pick # 18 at Sand Hills if you were one down in a match play competition, or, you needed a par or birdie to qualify or win in a medal play competition ?   ?

As John Patrick McEnroe Jr stated, " You can't be serious"

How can you possibly pick that hole as a desirable finisher when actually playing when it counts ?
Or you just like the look of the hole ?

# 18 at Pebble would also be in my top 10.

Pat,

I'm a bit perplexed by this commentary.  Are you saying that it would be difficult to win the hole at Sand Hills #18, that a player in the lead can play the hole defensively and tie the player who is 1 down?  My guess is you think this hole is a hard biride, easy par hole.  I'm not so sure.

It's about 450 yards long, downhill and then steeply uphill.  The fairway is quite wide.  The approach shot is steeply uphill, one to two clubs more, to a green in a natural bowl, so reasonable approach shots are gathered.  Even then, the green is sloped and tricky enough so that getting down in two shots is not a certainty.

I'll concede that a hole like this will not yield a broad distribution of scores, mostly 4s and 5s from good players.  A scratch player should be able to make par when he needs.  As a 1-2 handicap most of the time, I would estimate my average score on this hole would be about 4.3 - 4.4, based on my ongoing study at home courses.

So yes, a fitting, attractive finish is more important to me than the "intrinsic standard deviation" of scores.  I like a finishing hole that takes you back to the clubhouse in style, that reminds you where you are.  I like Rock Creek Cattle #18 for this reason.  Stanford's #18 is just lovely, with views of the Bay Area from the tee, tumbling down to the humble adobe clubhouse.

If a broad distribution of scores is desired, where power, risk and nerve are required to beat your opponent, I'd suggest that #18 at Pumpkin Ridge - Witch Hollow is almost unbeatable in that regard.  But too often it yields excessivley high scores that demoralize the player as he finishes the round.  I can't tell you how many times I have heard players say they double-triple-quadruple bogey the last when they have a career round going.

[Patrick Kiser]

I'll second Adam's mention for Pasa's 18th and Michael's for Carnoustie.  Potential for big drama there in a tight match.

In the Bay Area here on the public front, I'll give the nod to Harding.  The Pros make mincemeat of it, but us mere mortals have a challenging finish.  Better hit the drive to the proper upper left hand tier of the dogging left fairway.  Go right and you'll be blind and a long way to go as the ball will roll down to the right even more.  Second shot into the green can not go short.  Tough recovery either left or right, but especially left as bigger trouble awaits.  Multi tiered green places all kinds of pressure on the putting.  Top that off with quartering wind from the left off Lake Merced and you've got your hands full.

[Patrick_Mucci]

To those who chose # 18 at Sand Hills, a question.

So you would pick # 18 at Sand Hills if you were one down in a match play competition, or, you needed a par or birdie to qualify or win in a medal play competition ?   ?

As John Patrick McEnroe Jr stated, " You can't be serious"

How can you possibly pick that hole as a desirable finisher when actually playing when it counts ?
Or you just like the look of the hole ?

# 18 at Pebble would also be in my top 10.

Pat,

I'm a bit perplexed by this commentary. 
Are you saying that it would be difficult to win the hole at Sand Hills #18, that a player in the lead can play the hole defensively and tie the player who is 1 down? 

I'm saying you can just about eliminate birdying the hole, hence needing a birdie to qualify or win is next to impossible.

And, in match play, being 1 up, it's doubtful that you'll ever lose if you par the hole, or perhaps even bogey the hole.

My guess is you think this hole is a hard biride, easy par hole.  I'm not so sure.

Your guess is wrong.
I think it's an impropable birdie, difficult par.

It's about 450 yards long, downhill and then steeply uphill.  The fairway is quite wide.  The approach shot is steeply uphill, one to two clubs more, to a green in a natural bowl, so reasonable approach shots are gathered.  Even then, the green is sloped and tricky enough so that getting down in two shots is not a certainty.

That's why I'm amazed that some bozos on this site would select it as a desirable fininishing hole.
Remember, this isn't a beauty contest, it's a playing contest.

I'll concede that a hole like this will not yield a broad distribution of scores, mostly 4s and 5s from good players.  A scratch player should be able to make par when he needs.  As a 1-2 handicap most of the time, I would estimate my average score on this hole would be about 4.3 - 4.4, based on my ongoing study at home courses.

John, I'll take the don't bet against making par from any amateur.
Throw some of that notorious SH wind in the mix and the hole can become even more difficult.

So yes, a fitting, attractive finish is more important to me than the "intrinsic standard deviation" of scores.  I like a finishing hole that takes you back to the clubhouse in style, that reminds you where you are.  I like Rock Creek Cattle #18 for this reason.  Stanford's #18 is just lovely, with views of the Bay Area from the tee, tumbling down to the humble adobe clubhouse.

If a broad distribution of scores is desired, where power, risk and nerve are required to beat your opponent, I'd suggest that #18 at Pumpkin Ridge - Witch Hollow is almost unbeatable in that regard.  But too often it yields excessivley high scores that demoralize the player as he finishes the round.  I can't tell you how many times I have heard players say they double-triple-quadruple bogey the last when they have a career round going.

You make my point.  This thread is about playing the hole, not looking at it or photos of it.

If someone had to par or birdie the 18th hole for their career round, what idiot would pick # 18 at Sand Hills ?

Please raise your hand !

[C. Squier]

Garden City's 18th is nerve racking with the coats 'n boxers watching from the porch. 

Riviera's is a stern test to a good round.

Sebonack's is a great chance at birdie and a really fun hole.

But my favorite so far is Pine Valley's.  Epic hole after an epic experience. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

To those who chose # 18 at Sand Hills, a question.

So you would pick # 18 at Sand Hills if you were one down in a match play competition, or, you needed a par or birdie to qualify or win in a medal play competition ?   

Yeah, but Pat, what if you're one up in a match play competition?   

It's still a hard par.

Chances are par wins or at worst ties the hole.

I can see how one could seriously pick it.  It's birdieable.  Hell, I've done it.  Birdie at 18 at SH still takes 3 shots, just like any other par 4. 
It ain't thaaaaaaat hard. 

I'll bet you on making birdie all day, week, month and seaons long.
Anyone can birdie a hole, but few can birdie a hole when they have to, and even fewer can birdie # 18 at SH when they have to, and I'll book all the action you or anyone else wants.

Other than being drop dead beautiful and architecturally near-perfect, it still only takes 2 of the 3 shots (putt included) to be really, really good to make a birdie. 

Well, if that's all it takes, you should be willing to bet me all day, week, month and season long.
Why don't you form a syndicate and I'll book all the action you can raise.

I may have found the perfect retirement plan.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Clint,

I like # 18 at Sebonack as well.

I'm glad that Mike Pascucci overruled Nicklaus and Doak 

[C. Squier]

Clint,

I like # 18 at Sebonack as well.

I'm glad that Mike Pascucci overruled Nicklaus and Doak 

Amen. 

Let me in on the annuity you're setting up on Dave making 3's on SH 18.  No way is that hole an imminent birdie opportunity, for anyone.  The depth perception problem and slope in the green makes it darn hard to control distance, not to mention the ability to drop the putt.  IMO, one of the toughest greens on the course.

[Anthony Gray]

  Pat,

  Are you suffering from Nationalitis? What are your top 5 finishing holes?

  I like Pebble Beach, Carnoustie, TOC, Pinehurst, Riveria, My home course, Nob North, Harbor Town,Kingsbarns and even Sawgrass more.

  Anthony

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Are you suffering from Nationalitis? What are your top 5 finishing holes?

I like Pebble Beach, Carnoustie, TOC, Pinehurst, Riveria, My home course, Nob North, Harbor Town,Kingsbarns and even Sawgrass more.


Anthony,

I like # 18 at Pebble Beach.

I also like # 18 at Piping Rock.

Are you saying that you'd pick Pinehurst and Riviera if you had to make birdie or par to qualify for or win an event ?

Why do I NOT believe that.

I can't comment on some of the others you've chosen, but, I sense that you're not recommending them based on having to play them when it really, really means something, especially at medal play.

[Anthony Gray]

  Pat,

  I would just like to see something a little more unpredictable. The 18th green at Scranton CC I love. We all have seen what can happen on 18 at Carnoustie. I want DRAMA on 18 for the win I want risk/reward. I want a hole that can punish as well as reward the longer player while at the same time can reward the more accurate player. Cory Pavin on the 18th at Shinny comes to mind. Of all the holes at NCLA aren't there others that would be more ideal to determine a match?

  Respectfully,

  Anthony

[Bradley Anderson]

Number 18 at Midlane in Chicago. Designed by Bob Lohman, and I grew it in (so I guess that makes me kind of biased)

It's a short double dogleg par 5. The first half of the hole is gaurded from cutting the corner by an Oak forest. The fairway at the first turning point falls away sharply so that a long ball rolls to a down hill lie.

The second turning point is guarded by water that carriers all the way to the green. If you try to go for the green on your second shot, you are usually hitting from a down hill stance, and over water to a shallow green that is guarded by a deep bunker in the front.

The wise shot is to play it safe to a generous portion of fairway that is far right of the green, leaving you a wedge shot in to a wide opening to the deepest length of the putting surface.

All of this plays nicely for the last hole, where many a match is decided. I think that this is the characteristic of a great finishing hole. It has a safe route for par, and a daring but possible route for birdie, or possibly even an eagle in the case of a par five. I think if I designed a course I would try to make the 18th hole a par five, for this reason.

[Jon Heise]

As great holes, they are debateable, but I like the finishers at Mid Pines, Caledonia, and Greywalls an awful lot.

[Anthony Gray]

  I forgot 18 at Chambers Bay. 604 from the tips and the green has nice internal contours.

  Anthony

[Cliff Hamm]

Baltusrol Lower gets little love.  The 17th is often listed as one of the great par 5's.  I'll take the 18th.  Tremendous finishing hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anthony Gray,

This thread isn't about how the PGA Tour Pros play a hole, it's about how you and other amateurs on this site play a hole.

I really like # 18 at Shinnecock, but, I wouldn't want to have to play it, needing a birdie to qualify for some important event, would you ?

[Dean DiBerardino]

As great holes, they are debateable, but I like the finishers at Mid Pines, Caledonia, and Greywalls an awful lot.

Jon:

I'll cast a vote for Mid Pines as well!

[Patrick_Mucci]

To those who chose # 18 at Sand Hills, a question.

So you would pick # 18 at Sand Hills if you were one down in a match play competition, or, you needed a par or birdie to qualify or win in a medal play competition ?  

Yeah, but Pat, what if you're one up in a match play competition?  

It's still a hard par.

Chances are par wins or at worst ties the hole.

I can see how one could seriously pick it.  It's birdieable.  Hell, I've done it.  Birdie at 18 at SH still takes 3 shots, just like any other par 4.  
It ain't thaaaaaaat hard.  

I'll bet you on making birdie all day, week, month and seaons long.
Anyone can birdie a hole, but few can birdie a hole when they have to, and even fewer can birdie # 18 at SH when they have to, and I'll book all the action you or anyone else wants.

Other than being drop dead beautiful and architecturally near-perfect, it still only takes 2 of the 3 shots (putt included) to be really, really good to make a birdie.

Well, if that's all it takes, you should be willing to bet me all day, week, month and season long.
Why don't you form a syndicate and I'll book all the action you can raise.

I may have found the perfect retirement plan.

Boy, Pat, you're really stepping out with this one....willing to bet someone they won't birdie a hole...

That's the standard?  OK, fine.  

Shivas, you were the one who ho-hummed making par or birdie, I merely jumped on the oppotunity to retire early.

So....tell me.... what 18th hole would you be willing to bet on yourself or virtually anyone else making birdie more often than not?  I'll take the other side of that action all day, week, month, year, decade and century long!  

I like my chances on # 18 at Sebonack and NGLA, Piping Rock less so.  TOC probably, provided the weather isn't horrific.

You're setting up a ridiculous standard if that's your position, and there aren't many holes on this planet it applies to....and BTW, most of them are likely clunkers on rat-ass munis and such if once can birdie them more often than not.  I don't think your standard works at all as far as determining the best finishing hole.

You're the one who set the standard by selecting Sand Hills and then pooh-poohing par and birdie

[Brian Phillips]

I don't believe I am saying this but my favourite with your rules as my guide Pat is the 18th at The Old Course.

Great matchplay hole, with everything from a hole in 1, eagle, birdie, par and anything else above possible.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian,

I can see how some have placed # 18 at TOC high on their list.

I don't quite have that warm fuzzy feeling about # 18, whereas, I think # 17 is an all world hole.

There's something too bland about the 18th hole, not much in the way of challenge off the tee, and, the approach is rather short by any standard with a green that has interest, but not deviousness.

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