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Paul OConnor

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Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« on: September 03, 2009, 01:47:50 PM »
Related to recent thread.  Toughest defined as hardest to make birdie hole, always thrilled to make par holes. 

OFCC North #18
OFCC North #3
Conway #5
Floosmoor #17
Cog #13
Beverly #15
Shore Acres #10
Chicago Golf #1
Skokie #8
Westmoreland #3

I'm sure there are lots of others.
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Paul OConnor

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Re: Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2009, 01:48:52 PM »
I forgot

Butler #18
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Mark Smolens

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Re: Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2009, 03:50:37 PM »
Do you think that #3 at OF North is tougher than #14?  Green's smaller, but I've never made a putt on 14. . .  Also, #18 at Dubs is a pretty tough hole to make par on, let alone birdie. . .
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Mark Chaplin

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Re: Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2009, 04:20:56 PM »
Flossmoor 17th is one of the hardest holes i've ever played.

Managed to par Chicago 1st and OF North 3rd last time I played them  8)
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Chris Flamion

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Re: Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2009, 04:34:40 PM »
I nominate the 13th at Village Links.  483 yards up hill.  Landing area less than 300 out is only about 15-22 yards wide with bunkers on both sides pinching.  Forced fade into the green around trees and a right to left sloping green.  No real run up option with bunker 20 yards in front of green.  Back right pin position is virtually impossible to get close due to the slopes surrounding the pinnable plateau.

Didn't say it was a good hole, but it fits the tough description quite well.
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Kalen Braley

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Re: Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2009, 05:23:32 PM »
In my best Dan King brogue..

"Define par, I dare you".   ;D
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Bradley Anderson

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Re: Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2009, 08:23:44 PM »
Quote from: DSchmidt on September 03, 2009, 08:18:28 PM
I think most of the toughest par 4s in Chicago have not been mentioned yet. 



DS,

I am intrigued by that comment. Would you care to elaborate?

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Bradley Anderson

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Re: Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2009, 08:29:04 PM »
Maybe it has already been mentioned here, but if I had to choose the toughest par 4 in Chicago I would nominate #14 at Olympia Fields north course.
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jonathan_becker

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Re: Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2009, 08:29:24 PM »
#10 at Butler from the back elevated tee.  450ish down the hill, water left, huge bunkers right followed by an approach that's uphill with a wall in front that drops down into the hazard.  The approach must be precise because the green is so shallow. A par is fantastic.
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mark chalfant

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Re: Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2009, 08:32:04 PM »
Maybe some holes at Medinah #3, Knollwood,  or Thunder Hawk  ?
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jonathan_becker

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Re: Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2009, 08:37:30 PM »
#9 and #10 at Butler are the 2 hardest consecutive par 4s that I've ever played in my life.
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J_ Crisham

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Re: Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2009, 09:35:36 PM »
Quote from: jonathan becker on September 03, 2009, 08:37:30 PM
#9 and #10 at Butler are the 2 hardest consecutive par 4s that I've ever played in my life.
Jonathon,  If you found these 2 hard, which I agree from personal experience are tough, don't travel to Carnoustie and tackle 17and 18.
Those are the 2 hardest in a row in the world-ask the tour boys!    Jack
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J_ Crisham

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Re: Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2009, 09:39:25 PM »
Quote from: Paul OConnor on September 03, 2009, 01:47:50 PM
Related to recent thread.  Toughest defined as hardest to make birdie hole, always thrilled to make par holes. 

OFCC North #18
OFCC North #3
Conway #5
Floosmoor #17
Cog #13
Beverly #15
Shore Acres #10
Chicago Golf #1
Skokie #8
Westmoreland #3

I'm sure there are lots of others.
Paul,   A few others come to mind  # 6 at OFCC south, #2 at Chicago Golf Club,  #5 at Beverly- how hard is that hole into th ewind with a front pin placemnt?  Easy 5 or 6 comes to mind.           Jack
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Dan Moore

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Re: Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2009, 10:24:23 PM »
Jack do you put Bev 15 ahead of 16 on the toughness scale?  Based on my small sample size I'd say 16 is tougher and maybe a wee bit tougher than 5 but those are 3 tough holes.

I'm glad you mentioned OF South #6 as I thought someone would call me out on saying the North had 2 maybe 3 better holes.  

Paul,  I'd nominate Skokie 18 as tougher than # 8, 8 is a wonderful hole and maybe a better hole overall, but 18 seems tougher and comes at a more crucial part of the match, if its gone that far.  

Does Chicago Golf get the nod for toughest first 2 holes and toughest last 2 holes?  

« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 12:30:16 AM by Dan Moore »
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"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Phil McDade

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Re: Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2009, 10:51:40 PM »
Quote from: Dan Moore on September 03, 2009, 10:24:23 PM
Jack do you put Bev 15 ahead of 16 on the toughness scale?  Based on my small sample size I'd say 16 is tougher and maybe a wee bit tougher than 5 but those are 3 tough holes.


Dan:

Based on my very limited sample, I'd suggest 15 is tougher than 16, largely because 15 has a very difficult fairway to hold, and even if you do, you're not guaranteed a level lie in that fairway. And it's probably a club longer into that green -- from the tips, 15 is 465 vs. 441 for 16, although 16 is maybe add a club and 15 is somewhat downhill. 16 probably has a somewhat tougher green. But the tee shot is what makes 15 difficult, I think, because being off the fairway is pretty penal there, as it's the one of the places at Beverly that's kept a lot of trees close to the fairway. #5 into the wind would be a bear -- but it's also only 415 from the tips, so a good drive for most solid players leaves a manageable club, even with the uphill nature of that approach.

Having said all that, 17 at Flossmoor was tougher than any par 4 I encountered at Beverly. That is a beast of a hole.
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Chris Flamion

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Re: Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2009, 12:16:37 AM »
Quote from: DSchmidt on September 03, 2009, 08:32:52 PM


There are some nasty par 4s at Ruffled Feathers, even though I can't remember their numbers either.



Shivas-

I have played Ruffled Feather quite a few times and I don't remember any of the par 4's as truly difficult.  A fair challenge of par yes, but none of them had me walking away wondering how I got par(or bogey).
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PCCraig

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Re: Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2009, 08:57:01 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the 10th at Shoreacres was first meant to play as a par-5...like the real road hole...but over ime as the the shortest par-5 it naturally became a 4?

Kemper 16 is very tough.

Bull Valley is full of hard par-4's but mostly because there are so many trees that a missed fairway is a bogey automatically.

And 18 at OFCC-North is one last knockout punch from a heavyweight!  :D
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Dan Moore

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Re: Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2009, 01:54:34 PM »
Shivas,  I've only played the last 3 you mentioned and don't agree.  No way are the 1st 2 holes at Medinah tougher than the 1st 2 at CGC.  17 and 18 are closer, but you've crossed the cheater line as this is about par 4's. 
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"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Dan Moore

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Re: Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2009, 02:18:20 PM »
Fair point but now we'd have to play #2 at CGC from the new tee at 490. 
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"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

JR Potts

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Re: Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2009, 10:45:12 AM »
Shivas:

You are spot-on in your addition of the 10th Hole at Butler.  It is not open to discussion - the 10th hole at Butler from the back is the hardest Par 4 in the Chicagoland area by far.  I would argue that it is 1 shot harder, on average, than the next hardest hole.  I've never seen anyone birdie it.  That hole is so damn hard that Oklahoma State's coach, during the last event there, REQUIRED, that every player on his team lay-up their second shot short of the water and then take their chances getting it up and down.

AI do have to disagree with you on Medinah's toughest par 4.  I have to give it to #6....and, after the changes, it's going to be even harder....then again, with a new back tee on #16, it may get harder as well (although i think 16 will get more playable as better players will be able to hit a full tee shot with the new back tee). 
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Greg Ohlendorf

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Re: Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2009, 06:07:53 PM »
Still think Flossmoor's 17 at 460 plus or minus from the whites holds it's own against the rest and it's been that long since the beginning. It was a par five in the hickory days though.
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JR Potts

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Re: Toughest Par 4's in Chicago
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2009, 07:52:32 PM »
#17 at Flossmoor is a great hole....probably the best hole on that course.  That said, any handicapper under 10 can easily make a 5 on that hole.  Any handicapper under 3 can easily make a 6 on #10 at Butler....and that's what separates the two (as well as #10 from the rest) in my opinion.
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