[Jim Franklin]

I played a new course awhile back with some fellow GCAers and we were moaning about the number of forced carries on the course (well, they moaned more than I since I was hitting the ball well, but I moaned a little too). Does this take away from the course?

I just got back from a weekend at Pine Valley and noticed there were 17 forced carries throughout the course, but I loved every single one of them.

Do certain courses get free passes in this regard? Or is there nothing wrong with an abundance of forced carries?

[JESII]

I count 24...what qualifies as a forced carry?

[George Pazin]

It would surprise many to learn that I have no problem with many forced carries; I just wouldn't recommend those courses to lesser golfers.

[Dan Herrmann]

Jim,
I can tell you that the forced carries at my (5 yr old) club are due to wetland regulations.  Was it the best land you could find?   Nope.   But other than the wetlands, it's land with really nice movement. 

Ross would've just filled in the wetlands, but those days are gone forever.

[Jim Franklin]

At PV? I had the following: #1 tee shot, #2 tee shot and approach, #3 tee shot, #4 tee shot, #5 tee shot, #6 tee shot, #7 second and third shots, #8 approach shots, #9 tee shot, #10 tee shot, #12 tee shot, #14 tee shot, #15 tee shot, #16 tee shot, #17 approach, and #18 tee shot and approach. Oops, I get 19.

#13 could be considered a forced carry approach, but you can play to the right with a hook and run it up so I don't consider it a forced carry.

[Kalen Braley]

I think I may know of which course Jim speaks, so I won't divulge that info.  But I will make two points.

1)  Most importantly, to me as a high capper, I don't mind forced carries in the sense of having some unmaintained piece of earth that I must carry over....but at least give me a chance to find it most times when I'm unsuccessful.  Forced carries over prairies, grasses, waste bunkering, scrubland, etc, etc usually aren't a big irritant.  But when its over water, marsh, deep ravines, thick bushes, time and time again it gets a bit old.

2)  The length of said carries is also key.  Hitting over a 40 yard wide creek is usually nowhere near as brutal as a 150 yard long marsh. Even the "terminal" forced carries where death is immediate aren't too bad just as long as they aren't too big.

Is this too much to ask?    

[JESII]

Jim,

I think every tee requires a carry over the sandy scrub of somewhere between 75 and 200 yards.

[Phil McDade]

Jim:

It's a good question -- as one who doesn't like a lot of forced carries, I'd argue they ought to be used minimally (and the forced is often most associated with water or wetlands, the most penal feature a course can offer and thus one that in all cases ought to be used sparingly, in my view).

I tend to tolerate them more off tees than into greens; forced carries into greens I find really objectionable, because it limits options and makes the game one-dimesional. I recently played a grand old course in Chicago -- Flossmoor -- which was really enhanced (for me and esp. my much-better playing partners) by the variety of approaches one had into a green. In particular, after noting that balls hit on approaches on to greens were bouncing beyond the green, it quickly developed into a strategy of "how far do I land this in front of the green to get it near the pin?" which to me is just about the essence of the game.

Having said that, I think places like Pine Valley (which I've not played) ought to receive a special dispensation of this -- that's a course specifically designed to be a top-tier, really tough course -- a truly demanding course that would test even the best of players. So, in that case, I think a number of force carries (especially considering the natural terrain of that course) can be justified.

[Jim Franklin]

I guess there is some scrub in front of most tees. Some are so short as to not notice to me I guess. Let's just say that if your tendancy is to top the ball, Pine Valley will not be too fun  .

[JESII]

And your caddy will be none too happy...

[Jim Franklin]

And your caddy will be none too happy...

My caddy wasn't too happy either although we were hitting it well. I play a draw, the other guy a fade so we were rarely near each other  .

[Jed Peters]

I love it, as long as they are "appropriate" for the course/tee you're playing.

Some of the best examples of this would be:

1. 8 at CPC--you can top it to the left down the fairway--40 yard carry from the forward tee, or bite off a bunch off the dune
2. 16 at CPC--duh, this is obvious
3. 9 at Pac Dunes--most fun tee shot on the course, IMHO

[Richard Choi]

I agree with Kalen, as long as you have a reasonable chance of of finding the ball, I have no real problems with forced carries from the tee box. Even if you are a high handicapper, you should be able to play out of them.

I do not like 200+ yard water carries.

[Jim Franklin]

I heard someone complain about Bethpage Black saying every approach had a bunker front left or front right with a narrow sliver to run the ball up. Is that too much? It is a long, hard course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I played a new course awhile back with some fellow GCAers and we were moaning about the number of forced carries on the course (well, they moaned more than I since I was hitting the ball well, but I moaned a little too). Does this take away from the course?

I just got back from a weekend at Pine Valley and noticed there were 17 forced carries throughout the course, but I loved every single one of them.

Do certain courses get free passes in this regard? Or is there nothing wrong with an abundance of forced carries?

Jim,

I think certain courses get passes and that the pass is directly proportional to the perceived quality of the golf course.

As to forced carries, if you view a round of golf as an examination of a player's skill/ability, then a limited number of forced carries would seem to be a critical element in that examination.

[Carl Johnson]

Without going into detail about the definition of a "forced carry," I don't think it's possible to say they are "good" or "bad."  Personally, I don't like them, but it depends on you like your golf.  Some golfers prefer the challenge of the type of shot it takes to clear the area that you're forced to carry over, and some don't.

[Bill_McBride]

Jim,

I think every tee requires a carry over the sandy scrub of somewhere between 75 and 200 yards.

From the member tees, how many carries are over say 180 yards?  200 yards?

I ask because Tobacco Road beat me up from the tees we played, one up as I recall.  There were three carries of about 210 yards.  McBride 0/3. 

[Richard Hetzel]

I am OK with forced carries on MOST holes.

However, one that came to mind was Birdsfoot (Near Pittsburgh, PA) #9. We don't play the tips, but the next set up and if I remember correctly #9 was a forced carry of at least 190 yards to clear the hazard, but not make the green.

When I played Sapelo Hammock in Georgia back in July, they had some of the sickest Par 3 holes with forced carries. You were either on the green, OR LOST.

One would think the drop area gets a lot of action here.  I hate drop areas and feel like they are cheating evening though you may have just lost 2 strokes prior to using one.

Pic: Birdsfoot #9

[JESII]

Jim,

I think every tee requires a carry over the sandy scrub of somewhere between 75 and 200 yards.

From the member tees, how many carries are over say 180 yards?  200 yards?

#5 is the only one I would say is 180 or thereabouts...actually probably slightly under but it is uphill a few feet.

A few others around 150 to a short side of the fairway (#6, 16).

[Chris Flamion]

I have nothing wrong with forced carries over anything where I can find a golf ball.

Now for the forced carries over water/heavy brush/ravines...200 max and there should be some sort of way around.

[Keith Buntrock]

What are the longest forced carries in golf?

[Peter Pallotta]

I'm sure architects would never admit it, but the 'retail golfer' has become a real pain in the ass...

Peter

[Sean_A]

I played a new course awhile back with some fellow GCAers and we were moaning about the number of forced carries on the course (well, they moaned more than I since I was hitting the ball well, but I moaned a little too). Does this take away from the course?

I just got back from a weekend at Pine Valley and noticed there were 17 forced carries throughout the course, but I loved every single one of them.

Do certain courses get free passes in this regard? Or is there nothing wrong with an abundance of forced carries?

Its almost as if members of this board have been Dr MacKed.  Alll features are good in moderation and in the right setting.  Far too often questions are put as if in juxtaposition in true Dr Mac style.  There are no gradings of hazards and use of features - they are all good.  Its how (and how much) they are used which determines their worth.

The carry on Bruce's Castle has to be the longest that pros will still consider doable - if not foolish.

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

What are the longest forced carries in golf?

Cypress Point #16 can be 220 yards into the wind.

Some of the carries at the Bethpage Black opens were > 260 yards.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I wouldn't say the retail golfer is a pain in the ass!

The theory against forced carries is simple - they trouble the good player not one iota in most cases, but cause all sorts of grief for the average and poor golfers.  Its a feature that has a low benefit ratio in design and commerce.  As mentioned, the forced carry is making a comeback for "environmental reasons" with wetlands and creeks now being protected and with turf limits that have some gca's using natives or sandy waste areas between tee and fw.  I still get the sneaking suspicion that in many areas, the unwatered rough (blue, fescue or bermuda) depending on where it is) that browns out may still be the best compromise between reducing irrigation and playability.  I recall the midewest courses I played had pretty good definition with watered fw and brown roughs.

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