[PThomas]

The world list obviously favors the classical courses.  The top US list surprises me as to Plainfield (Too low) and Torrey Pines and Trump International - are they really top 100?

No, Torrey is not, but no one wants to hear me toot that horn, so I'll refrain.

then I'll toot it David:  Torrey top 100 IN THE WORLD???  its not even top 100 in the US...i'm too tired to think about it now but its probably not even top 10 (20??) in the state

[Alfonso Erhardt]

About Oitavos Dunes, it is probably the best layout in Portugal at the time. I know that doesn't mean much, but the property is magnificent and the course has some very good holes - probably not a Top 100, but still a place worth playing. It has recently hosted the Portugal Open (I think for the last four years) which probably has helped gained prominence. The clubhouse and food are also fantastic.

In Southern European fashion, they are now screwing it all up by building a hotel between the 1st and 18th holes, and they have also removed all the scrub from the dunes, they looked quite artificial the last time I was there - which is a shame.

[Brian Phillips]

Brian:

I've never been to Oitavos Dunes, but I am not staying away to scratch Art Hills' back.  And I really doubt he is scratching anyone else's back.

Tom,

There are a lot of buddies on that list and it must be difficult for some of them to grade down a 'fellow friend's golf course'. Take for example you and David.  Possibly, subconsciously without you even knowing it yourself, your grading of Bandon might be a point higher than if it was designed by someone you do not like....

I know you are impartial but not everyone on that panel is perfect....or maybe they are and that is why they are on the panel?

Cynical, me?  ...never   

[Cristian]

About Oitavos Dunes, it is probably the best layout in Portugal at the time. I know that doesn't mean much, but the property is magnificent and the course has some very good holes - probably not a Top 100, but still a place worth playing. It has recently hosted the Portugal Open (I think for the last four years) which probably has helped gained prominence. The clubhouse and food are also fantastic.

In Southern European fashion, they are now screwing it all up by building a hotel between the 1st and 18th holes, and they have also removed all the scrub from the dunes, they looked quite artificial the last time I was there - which is a shame.

I played Oitavos Dunes in June and I agree it is no. 1 in Portugal. I thought  there were some really good holes in the stretch from 4-7, and from 9 to 17. The short par 4 11th and the par3 14th horizon green are really extraordinary holes. Other holes though are encroached by housing projects and other buildings. Also, even worse the course was awfully overwatered, playing wet and soggy rather than fast and firm. If they get that right the course will be even better. Top 100 in the world? No. I can easily think of twenty courses on the european continent that are better.

[David_Elvins]

Take for example you and David.  Possibly, subconsciously without you even knowing it yourself, your grading of Bandon might be a point higher than if it was designed by someone you do not like....

I never even knew Tom liked Bandon Dunes.

As for the list. Barnbougle is moving the wrong way IMO.  And like  Joel Stewart, I think Passatiempo should be smack bang in the middle as well. 

And a question - how good is old sandwich?  I had no idea it was on these lists - so low profile compared to Ballyneal, Friars Head, Chambers Bay etc.

[Mike Sweeney]

And a question - how good is old sandwich?  I had no idea it was on these lists - so low profile compared to Ballyneal, Friars Head, Chambers Bay etc.

I have not played it, and I asked the same question of a few people off-line and was told by all that OS is a lock as Top 10 Modern in the US and one had it as a Top 5 over Friars Head somewhere in the Bandon mix.

If you take a hundred mile radius around Providence Airport (Boston GC, Eastward Ho!, Fishers Island, Newport, Sankaty Head, Kittansett........) an argument can be made that it is the #1 airport in the US for golf!

[JC Jones]

IM sure there is an airport on long island....

[Mike Sweeney]

IM sure there is an airport on long island....

and then you get to sit in traffic.......



Other than Shinnecock and National, what does not match up in the SE New England vs Long Island matchup?

[JC Jones]

You listed the following:

Boston GC, Eastward Ho!, Fishers Island, Newport, Sankaty Head, Kittansett

I say:

Shinny, NGLA, Maidstone, Garden City, Friars Head, Sebonack.

(I've not played any of the above so feel free to smack me down if I am wrong )

[Jim Colton]

Brian:

I've never been to Oitavos Dunes, but I am not staying away to scratch Art Hills' back.  And I really doubt he is scratching anyone else's back.

Tom,

There are a lot of buddies on that list and it must be difficult for some of them to grade down a 'fellow friend's golf course'. Take for example you and David.  Possibly, subconsciously without you even knowing it yourself, your grading of Bandon might be a point higher than if it was designed by someone you do not like....

I know you are impartial but not everyone on that panel is perfect....or maybe they are and that is why they are on the panel?

Cynical, me?  ...never   

Brian,

  The opposite is probably more likely true.  The panelists aren't allowed to vote on their own courses (or their votes for their courses just aren't counted), so one way to make your courses look better it to vote everybody else down.  Remember these guys are all competing for a limited number of projects.  It's difficult to pretend that this would never happen.

  I wonder if the 50/50 mistakenly forgot to take out the panelists ballots on their own courses and the top 100 fixed it.  It is strange that they would yield such different results.  I also wonder if the editors are subjectively putting their mark on it.  Cog Hill wasn't even on their Top 100 public in 2008, now suddenly it's in the top 100 overall.  I can't imagine a bunch of panelists have had the opportunity to play it since it's been renovated to move up 80+ spots on the public list (I count about 20 public courses on the top 100 u.s. list).  So they must be doing some sort of projection or trending of more recent ballots to slot a course like Cog and potentially others.

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

Your explanation for the discrepancy shouldn't be correct ... I never put a vote on any of my own courses, so their relative position should not change.  And there are several cases where one vote could not make as much difference as the discrepancy.

You are surely correct that having so many designers on the panel [who can vote against their competitors' courses] holds down the ranking of any modern course, but that probably only partially counteracts the hype and marketing dollars which pump up the results for new courses.

For something like Cog Hill, an editorial decision that the course has been changed (so older votes don't count) can throw out a lot of negative votes from people who had seen it years ago, who probably still wouldn't like it but haven't been back.

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