[mark chalfant]

at Olympia Fields South.  I recently had the great pleasure touring this course with Jeff Goldman. It is a brilliant classical restoration. Astounding set of two shotters in terms of length, terrain, and variety. Blind teeshots, ground game options, true doglegs, remarkable greens, and a winding creek. For me, OFCC  South has the finest group in the whole state.  Do you agree ?


Dissenting opinions welcome with these two guide lines:

1. A Classical or Modern example is ok
2. Don't discuss courses located in Wheaton

[Rob_Waldron]

Mark

I had a similar opportunity and would agree that the course has some fabulous par 4 holes. There is a great deal of variety with respect to elevation and direction. Steve Smyers revealed and enhance some great golf holes. Too bad other clubs with more than one 18-hole course have not followed this example...Ryan?

[Adam Clayman]

Big run had similar terrain with awesome interior contours. Their rough and trees ruin it although architecturally the bones are there and compare favorably to the south course.

[JR Potts]

Mark

I had a similar opportunity and would agree that the course has some fabulous par 4 holes. There is a great deal of variety with respect to elevation and direction. Steve Smyers revealed and enhance some great golf holes. Too bad other clubs with more than one 18-hole course have not followed this example...Ryan?

I have not played the South course yet as Terry Lavin has not invited me.   

That said, I've heard great things.

RE: other courses, Medinah's time will come....likely after the 2012 Ryder Cup when the course gets the crap kicked out of it for staging, etc.  But, I'm not sure the land on Course #1 holds a candle to Olympia Field's property.

[Bill_McBride]

at Olympia Fields South.  I recently had the great pleasure touring this course with Jeff Goldman. It is a brilliant classical restoration. Astounding set of two shotters in terms of length, terrain, and variety. Blind teeshots, ground game options, true doglegs, remarkable greens, and a winding creek. For me, OFCC  South has the finest group in the whole state.  Do you agree ?


Dissenting opinions welcome with these two guide lines:

1. A Classical or Modern example is ok
2. Don't discuss courses located in Wheaton

Why is Chicago Golf Club DQ'd? 

[Bradley Anderson]

Every par four at Shoreacres is strong for sure.

I think Old Elm has some strong par fours. Number 2, 8, 10, & 11.

[J_ Crisham]

I would agree with Shivas regarding the par 4's at Skokie-very fine set. My favorites are #1,8, 10,15?(the short devilish one). Great track. Would also agree with both the North and South at OFCC. I like the par 4's at Beverly as well-some great long and short holes. The hardest par 4 in Chicago has to be the 18th at OFCC north-490 yards of beast with a hell of a green.
                                                                                 Jack

[Bradley Anderson]

DS

I guess I have to agree with you on all those holes. Except if the pin is back left on 17 it can be interesting, expecially now that they have cut down the trees that used to backdrop and frame that shot.

The front pin position on 3 can be interesting too.

[Tom MacWood]

...NLE because Mill Road Farm is now covered with homes.

[Bradley Anderson]

Also you can't ignore Beverly for world class par fours.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Also you can't ignore Beverly for world class par fours.

I think it would be the best ensemble of par fives.

[Dan Moore]

Noone seems to be disputing Mark's claim that the set of 4's on the south course are pretty exceptional.  What then does it say about Olympia Fields when some would contend the two possibly 3 best 4's on the property on are the North course. 

[mark chalfant]

Bradley Anderson,

I also love the group of par fours at Shoreacres. However I prefer  the OFCC South ones because I feel there is a little more variety in the shots you are required to hit, both off the tee, and to some of the green sites. Number 6 requires  well placed drive, so that you have a prayer on the approach to the sharply elevated green. Even number one at OFCC south has a gully in front of the green that can swallow tentative approaches. Although I like the green complexes at Shoreacres quite well, I found the bunkering and internal contours at OFCC South to be more intricate, hazardous, and yet every bit as fun as the set of par fours at Shoreacres.

[Jeff Goldman]

Thanks to Mark for the kind words, and especially for the fun day at the club last week.  We spent a lot of time looking at playing angles, and more just rolling golf balls around the greens to watch the breaks, which taught me a thing or two (the only criticism of the course I have heard that seems to me to be totally ridiculous was a complaint after a quick round that the greens were flat.  Wow).  Now that I've had a year to play it, I do think that one of the strengths of the course (possibly the greatest strength) is the variety to be found.   

Unfortunately, I had to abandon Mark in the afternoon to get ready for a meeting of the Board of Governors at the club, and I think he got drenched trying to see the North Course.  Regardless, as always it was great fun talking GCA, especially with one of the "old guard". 

[PCCraig]

I'm not sure about "best" (tough to compare of the top of my head) but I do know that I had alot of fun playing the par-4's on the South Course and I agree with Mark in saying the variety in the set of par-4's is tough to match in the Chicago area. I would assume that the variety comes from two things; (1) the very good, rolling, and "active" piece of land complete with a creek/river running through it which allows for some blind/uphill/downhill tee shots and the river forces some thought before just pulling the trigger with a driver off each tee, (2) Smyers work in renovating the course allowed for some seemingly drastic changes on individual holes which gives the course different feels as the round goes on...for example, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the 13th (open par-4 with water on the left) and 14 (the shortish par-3 over water) are in an open area of the property with less trees, but then immediately on the 15th tee you head back to a somewhat tight (or maybe it just feels like that after the open holes) tree-lined hole.

[Andy Troeger]

Noone seems to be disputing Mark's claim that the set of 4's on the south course are pretty exceptional.  What then does it say about Olympia Fields when some would contend the two possibly 3 best 4's on the property on are the North course. 

Dan,
I was thinking the same thing. I really enjoyed the entire South Course, but I still think the North's set of par fours is just as good or better. I can guess that #3 and 14 were two that you were thinking, and I like #12 just as much. There might be a little more variety with the South given a couple shorter holes with some cool options.

[Bradley Anderson]

All this talk about OFCC South has me wondering if the South has trumped the North as the best of the two courses?

[PCCraig]

All this talk about OFCC South has me wondering if the South has trumped the North as the best of the two courses?

I would say it's far closer than it used to be! 

The North is still and always has been a very good golf course and probably my favorite of the "championship" courses in Chicago (Medinah & Cog included).

[tlavin]

I'm a member at Olympia and I don't think that the South course is in the top five or six on this particular issue.  It surely pales in comparison to the North on every level and the par 4 holes are no exception.  There are five absolutely stellar par 4 holes on the South (1, 2, 6, 9 and 17, in my judgment.  The North, on the other hand, has at least 8 great par four holes (2, 3, 4, 9, 10, 12, 14 and 18).  As you can see from that list, the North has much better balance.  The front nine of the South is just as good as either nine on the North, but the back nine suffers in comparison, despite the fact that that side is fun, interesting and demanding in its own way.  Don't get me wrong, I love the South course, but the back nine has two par 5's that are a little too short to rank highly in my mind, two par fours that are sort of underwhelming (14 and 16), and a par 4 that needs fifty trees cut down if one wants to have any reasonable attempt at a drive from the back tee (15).

As for the main issue, I agree with Shivas that Skokie's par 4's are really, really good.  I think their par 5 holes leave me wanting, but the 4's are stout and interesting.  Beverly has an interesting mix of 4's but a couple of them are just okay, in my opinion (#4 and #8).  I would put Butler's par 4 holes up in this category as well.  There isn't a bad par 4 on the golf course.  There's a great mix of shortish and long (although there isn't a real "short" par 4) holes and a great variety of green complexes.  In my mind it would be a draw between Skokie and Butler, with Medinah running close behind.

[Jeff Goldman]

Terry (my mentor and sponsor): 

FYI, 14 is a par 3.     Pretty good short one too.

Jeff

[K. Krahenbuhl]

13 is the hole that stood out to me as not being on the level of the other par fours.  It didn't seem to fit.

[mark chalfant]

Dave, Jeff, Bradley, Terry, et al,

Thanks for the good responses. On the modern side would the collection of par four holes at  Harborside, Weaver Ridge, or Black Sheep be worth seeking out  ?
thanks

[Phil McDade]

I'm a member at Olympia and I don't think that the South course is in the top five or six on this particular issue.  It surely pales in comparison to the North on every level and the par 4 holes are no exception.  There are five absolutely stellar par 4 holes on the South (1, 2, 6, 9 and 17, in my judgment.  The North, on the other hand, has at least 8 great par four holes (2, 3, 4, 9, 10, 12, 14 and 18).  As you can see from that list, the North has much better balance.  The front nine of the South is just as good as either nine on the North, but the back nine suffers in comparison, despite the fact that that side is fun, interesting and demanding in its own way.  Don't get me wrong, I love the South course, but the back nine has two par 5's that are a little too short to rank highly in my mind, two par fours that are sort of underwhelming (14 and 16), and a par 4 that needs fifty trees cut down if one wants to have any reasonable attempt at a drive from the back tee (15).

As for the main issue, I agree with Shivas that Skokie's par 4's are really, really good.  I think their par 5 holes leave me wanting, but the 4's are stout and interesting.  Beverly has an interesting mix of 4's but a couple of them are just okay, in my opinion (#4 and #8).  I would put Butler's par 4 holes up in this category as well.  There isn't a bad par 4 on the golf course.  There's a great mix of shortish and long (although there isn't a real "short" par 4) holes and a great variety of green complexes.  In my mind it would be a draw between Skokie and Butler, with Medinah running close behind.

Terry:

I thought #4 at Beverly to be superior to #9 (both very similar holes, doglegs left over largely flat land), if only because of the great green complex at #4. I had visions of Lawsonia, a course I know much better, when faced with that approach shot at #4. I do think the tee shot on #4 is a bit disconcerting, with that fence staring you in the face and in easy reach for the long (perhaps even moderately long) hitter.

#8 I liked a lot; I might even say it's a better hole than #13 (whose tee shot I love, but the rest of the hole is somewhat predictable, and #13's green site isn't quite up to the standard of some really great and hard green sites on the back nine at Beverly.) I really liked that approach on #8, esp. when the pin is tucked in the front portion of the green, because the visual is so deceptive -- a real "Huh?" kind of look. I think that's a fun green, too -- not Ross, of course, but pretty interesting.

Just MHO.

[JWinick]

As an OFCC guy as well, I thing the Par 4s on the South are great, but #8 is the only hole at the OFCC complex I don't care for, and it is a par 4.   13 is somewhat out of character, but that is due to the architect making something interesting out of the least interesting land at the club.   #11 is probably the most underrated Par 4, a great risk/reward short Par 4 that I can never seem to score on. 

I think the Par 3s and Par 5s are as strong at OFCC South as the Par 4s.   I think it's a plus that the Par 5s can be reached in two, rather than a negative.   At Beverly, for example, all of the Par 5s can not be reached in two except under rare conditions.  However, there is no question that the South can be overpowered.   

To me, the big difference between the North and the South is the South has more birdies and double-bogies, but it does have 1-2 indifferent holes, whereas the north has 18 solid golf holes. 

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