[Richard Choi]

I just had some interesting posts on Microsoft employee golf discussion alias. I am quiting that discussion after this post... sigh...

Yes, the home course (he is referring to The Old Course) presents a test of golf, on certain holes. Holes like 17, 13, 9 etc. Not on 18 or 1 or other holes that have wide open fairways. If you play any good RTJ (senior) course or Pet Dye course, its very similar in design to what I am trying to point out.


What can I say after this???

[Wayne_Kozun]

Should we send Melvyn to Redmond to kick some butt?

[Garland Bayley]

Tell him good luck with missing the pot bunkers! Tell him, RTJ perverted the fairway bunkers into rough bunkers (bunkers in the rough, not the fairway) so you had the boring task of playing the obvious line. Tell him he could do that on the driving range and needn't visit another golf course.

[Anthony Gray]

  Buy him a copy of Rich Goodale's book.

  Anthony

[Richard Choi]

Damn, another post from the same guy...

I was not going to get people even more riled up by saying TOC is overrated and overpriced.

TOC overrated??!!! TOC???!!! WHHATTT???

[Garland Bayley]

Tell him that it takes several rounds at TOC to appreciate the architecture. Bobby Jones had that experience, as well as others.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Richard.

A lot of people think TOC is an overrated museum piece.  Even Snead thought so until he played it a few times

[Kalen Braley]

Ask him if he thinks ANGC is a good championship test of golf..

[Garland Bayley]

Ask him if he would discuss economics without knowing what Keyes had to say about it.

Ask him how he can discuss architecture without knowing what MacKenzie had to say about it.

[Richard Choi]

Ask him if he thinks ANGC is a good championship test of golf..

Kalen, I did and he said Sahalee is more "stern test of golf" then ANGC (and ANGC had to add more trees to become one)!

It's a lost cause... But I bet you there are more of them than us.

[David Stamm]

Ask him how he can discuss architecture without knowing what MacKenzie had to say about it.

Precisely, my learned professor.

[Kalen Braley]

Ask him if he thinks ANGC is a good championship test of golf..

Kalen, I did and he said Sahalee is more "stern test of golf" then ANGC (and ANGC had to add more trees to become one)!

It's a lost cause... But I bet you there are more of them than us.

Richard,

No doubt.  Thats when you shake his hand and say "Larry, its been nice talking with you"...because its tough to really go anywhere else from there.

Or you can always come back with the quick quip..."Why don't they just hold the tournament on the practice range next time"...see what he says then! 

[Adam Clayman]

See if this great player can explain why a course with few tests could last 400+ years?

Then have him define "test of golf"?

When thats all done, see if he can remember how many birdies and eagles he's had on those two holes.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Ask him if he would discuss economics without knowing what Keyes had to say about it.

Do you mean Alicia?  She has a nice voice but what does she know about economics?

[David Stamm]

Ask him if he thinks ANGC is a good championship test of golf..

Kalen, I did and he said Sahalee is more "stern test of golf" then ANGC (and ANGC had to add more trees to become one)!

It's a lost cause... But I bet you there are more of them than us.

Unfortuantely, that is the reality, Richard.


Stern tests do not mark the greatness of a course. In fact, they have nothing to do with one another. Ask him what he shot at TOC? And in what conditions? If the wind was up, how much of the challenge would have been taken away by a sentinel of trees along each fairway to block that wind out? Trees, such as those at Sahalee, while providing demands on the player, are always the same demands, no matter what. When wind is introduced, the course can play different everyday. I call this the McDonalds school of design. People like this want to be able to get the same course all the time no matter where they are at and it "tastes" exactly the same, every time.

[Pete_Pittock]

Wayne,
I think he was taking about Alan.

[Richard Choi]

This all started with an "innocent" remark of me disparaging a golf hole (Kayak Point's 2nd hole which is a 544 yard dog leg right with a 15 yard opening about 240 yards away - if you miss either side you are in trees). I argued that punishing slight misses with lost balls and forcing people to layup on a long par 5's is not good design and I offered another hole from a different course where there are plenty of landing areas but more strategy and options as a good contrast.

He replied 100 yard landing areas do not require any golf skills. At which point, I brougt up the 1st and 18th fairway at TOC (and his reply is above).

Neither of us have played TOC (except on computer!), so I can't really knock him for that, but I just don't understand this mentality that fairways cannot offer strategy, and good courses must be lined with trees. I could try to explain about the wind conditions and shot shapes, but I doubt that that would persuade much.

[Bob Jenkins]

Richard,

You should have known better than to start that up with a bunch of nerds at Microsoft! Most of them have played TOC on a computer game.

[David Stamm]

Why not ask him what he thinks of Cypress Point? Royal Melbourne? If he has heard of these courses and answers positively about the places, tell him what AM thought of width? If he counters, say "Is AM wrong? The guy designed some of the best and most revered courses on the world? They must be these things for a reason? Why do you think that is?"


Or, you can always just save yourself the probable frustration and quote Bernard Darwin by saying, "All great course and great holes have puny enemies."

[Dan Herrmann]

Richard,
Don't worry.  Britney Spears sells a lot more CDs than Mozart.   There's also a reason Entertainment Tonight draws more viewers than almost any news show.

Oh yeah, it's why you see the kitsch at Pike Place Market. 

Don't fight it - just chuckle to yourself and be kind to them

[Steve Kline]

Ask him if he would discuss economics without knowing what Keyes had to say about it.

Ask him how he can discuss architecture without knowing what MacKenzie had to say about it.

This guy is discussing architecture as if he had read Keynes and was discussing economics. Hence the problem. He should read Mises, Rothbard, Hazlitt and others. 

[Adam Clayman]

I suppose by his decree Ian Baker-Finch has no skill.

[Garland Bayley]

Richard,

You should have known better than to start that up with a bunch of nerds at Microsoft! Most of them have played TOC on a computer game.

Hey Bob,

Lay off the nerds!

Judging by the people I met in CA, you wouldn't have a Kings Putter Cup without the nerds!

[Garland Bayley]

Ask him if he thinks ANGC is a good championship test of golf..

Kalen, I did and he said Sahalee is more "stern test of golf" then ANGC (and ANGC had to add more trees to become one)!

It's a lost cause... But I bet you there are more of them than us.

You can always let him know that Tom Doak called Sahalee 18 holes of boring tree gate after boring tree gate.

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