[Charlie Goerges]

I realize that "only" would be too limiting, but "is it possible to design a green that so significantly favors one shot shape that any other shot shape is a fool's-errand?" wouldn't fit.

Bear in mind that we're talking greens here, not fairways as I feel like I've played a few that the above statement would apply to.

[Tim Gavrich]

Many greens at my home course, Pawleys Plantation in Pawleys Island, SC clearly favor the player who can execute a high left-to-right approach.  It's a Jack Nicklaus "Signature" course, and many people speculate that the Golden Bear fancies crafting holes that would have fit his eye in his heyday.

#8


#12

[Mike Hendren]

Aboslutely.  Ironically, it's the "redan" at Shinnecock.

Mike

[Charlie Goerges]

You both bring up good examples, but in the case of yours Tim, I wonder if another phrase you used isn't more telling/accurate: "fit his eye" (speaking of Jack Nicklaus). In the case of the photos you posted wouldn't it be the case that any high soft shot would be in pretty good shap to hold the green? In any event, they do both look like a fade is the order of the day.


Michael, your example gets closer to what I was thinking of (i.e. a green that will only hold a certain shot is probably a bit too severe even for players who play that shot). Perhaps that green isn't too severe, us open notwithstanding. In that case it would be a perfect example RE the title question.


Are there others that anyone can think of? Ones that truly only accept a certain shot shape, not ones with merely a slight advantage for a certain shot shape.

[Garland Bayley]

Charlie,

You've been watching too much golf on TV.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Charlie - If you are ever in Geneva, NY, where I went to school. There is a public course called Seneca Lake Country Club, where you can play 18 holes for under $20. The Seventh hole, a par-4, plays across a creek, then dog-legs to the left, and runs along the side of a hill. The green and approach, are sloped severely right-to-left, as little grading has been done on the side of the hill. The only way one can successfully reach this green in regulation, is to play a fade because the pitch of the green is at an angle of at least 20 degrees!

While playing this hole in the past, after missing the green left, I have chipped my ball 20 ft directly past the pin, only for it to roll all the way back to the hole.... I actually holed it once doing this! ... It can take a few tries to get the ball to stay on the green, it always helps when the ball comes to rest on a stick or leaf!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wasn't that what Nicklaus did at Shoal Creek ?

[Tom_Doak]

Charlie:

Sure, it's "possible".  Just take the Redan at North Berwick or National and build a replica with a bunker right across the approach.

But, your other phrase about the "fool's errand" would apply to the designer as well as the player.

[PThomas]

that was the rap with a lot of Jack's earlier designs i believe...but not sure is still the case with his later work

[Sean_A]

It seems to me that Merion's 5th comes very close to this.  Any hole of that sort with a strong tilt to the left in firm conditions could be answerable to the soft fade charge.  Huntercombe's 3rd comes to mind as well.

Ciao

[Anthony_Nysse]

MANY of Nicklaus' early courses were design where many of the greens required a high fade approach. In fact, I believe that he used to be accused to design course the only he could play. In true Nicklaus fashion, #5 at Pebble Beach was designed this way....

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

[Tim Gerrish]

Charlie,

A shortish <175 yd reverse redan such as Macdonald's hole at St. Louis CC.

[Charlie Goerges]

I've heard the criticism of Nicklaus' early work. I wonder if, in his case, it merely appeared to require a fade, or if a fade might have been the preferred shot, but with other shots working as well.

Sean, Tim, Michael, Jaeger, and Tom have mentioned specific greens (at least 2 of which were of the redan configuration). The thing that strikes me here is that the redan is traditionally thought of as a good hole on which to hit a running draw. So it is extremely counter-intuitive.

Nicklaus' greens seem to be different. They might angle away and to the right, but generally sloped back to front, so any high shot would hold.

[ChipOat]

Sean Arble said it first.

#5 at Merion - even coming in from the left rough, the straight ball rolls off left and a draw doesn' t have a chance, at all.  From anywhere in the fairway, the bad matter gets worse due to the angle of attack.  In fact, from the right rough (and even the right 1/4 of the fairway), the line of flight is coming across and down the green's "fall line" making it virtually impossible for even a fade to stay on the short grass.

Although # 18 also works better with a fade into the green, the end result of a straight shot or draw is much less of an issue than with #5.

I would think that #3 at Pine Valley also wants a fade given the left/right slope of that green as well.

[David Botimer]

16 at Bandon Trails comes pretty close.  Any slightly right to left shot definitely won't hold the green, and a straight shot needs to be right side of the green to hold it.

[Charlie Goerges]

Anyone have photos of Merion #5?

[Carl Nichols]

It's been several years since I played Merion, but my recollection is that a straight ball or even draw can get on the green as long as it lands right of the green, and feeds off the slope.   

[Sean_A]

It's been several years since I played Merion, but my recollection is that a straight ball or even draw can get on the green as long as it lands right of the green, and feeds off the slope.   

Carl

That is probably true at least some of the time.  However, rightly or wrongly, I took ""accepts a soft fade" to mean hitting the green with a soft fade. 



Ciao

[ChipOat]

Carl,

You might be correct if there have been at least two consecutive days of rain (maybe) AND the shot is coming in from the left most angle that is possible.  Otherwise, any ball that comes off the hill and makes it to the right edge of the green doesn't stop until it rolls off either the left side or the left front of the green.



 

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