[Patrick_Mucci]

I wouldn't say the retail golfer is a pain in the ass!

The theory against forced carries is simple - they trouble the good player not one iota in most cases, but cause all sorts of grief for the average and poor golfers. 


Jeff, I'd disagree with that in that the low handicap golfer and the high handicap golfer shouldn't be playing from the same tees, thus the challenge in the carry shouldn't be the same.

If a golf course is designed prudently shouldn't forced carries have more benign angles and be shorter for the high handicap golfer, allowing him to meet and overcome a challenge within the perameters of their ability ?

Its a feature that has a low benefit ratio in design and commerce. 

Financially, it would seem to be a positive since the carry area doesn't have to be maintained, or it can be minimally maintained.

As mentioned, the forced carry is making a comeback for "environmental reasons" with wetlands and creeks now being protected and with turf limits that have some gca's using natives or sandy waste areas between tee and fw. 

I still get the sneaking suspicion that in many areas, the unwatered rough (blue, fescue or bermuda) depending on where it is) that browns out may still be the best compromise between reducing irrigation and playability.  I recall the midewest courses I played had pretty good definition with watered fw and brown roughs.

[Jim Franklin]

Jim,

I think every tee requires a carry over the sandy scrub of somewhere between 75 and 200 yards.

From the member tees, how many carries are over say 180 yards?  200 yards?

#5 is the only one I would say is 180 or thereabouts...actually probably slightly under but it is uphill a few feet.

A few others around 150 to a short side of the fairway (#6, 16).

#16 and #18 are both 195+ from the white tees. #5 is 190 to the green but has a sliver of fairwqay short of the green that isn't a bad place to be. Much better than being long on that hole. That green is treacherous.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

Yes, a tee set can be designed to reduce or eliminate a forced carry for the average Joe.  But then, its not a hole with a forced carry for them, is it?  I am reminded of a USGA one day study at a public course in NJ.  Of 140 tee shots measured from the mid tees, only 104 got airborne. 

That means 25% of shots off the middle tees are topped, if these stats are average, and I think they are.  That means reducing forced carries by reducing distance from say 210 yards for the really big hitters on the back tees to a low of maybe 90 yards from the forward tees, still means that 25% of average players will find the natives, sand, whatever and it will slow down play.

There is even a problem with forced carries for good players.  Facing facts that most courses will never host more than a sectional PGA event, the distances played by those levels players still range from a low of 240 to well over 300 yards.  You have to set the forced carry to the lowest common denominator, i.e., maybe no more than 220 yards, maybe less in windy climates or some players just can't play the course.

As to maintenance, I recall the old super at PV telling me that mowing turf is a lot cheaper than maintaining waste areas.

[Jim Franklin]

Jeff -

I was thinking how hard it would be to maintain the sand at Pine Valley this past weekend. I bet it is more expensive and someone is surely doing it. There are no rakes so the caddies are not doing anything. And I hit from a few waste areas that were certainly fixed at some point by a human raking. Maybe they should leave a few rakes somewhere.

[JESII]

Jeff,

The old super at PV didn't "maintain" the waste areas...

[Martin Toal]

Forced carries are a feature at Royal Co. Down, including a couple of carries over gorse which get the player's attention of the wind is against. Not to everyone's liking, but part of the charm and character of the course. On some modern courses, forced carries can be, well, a bit forced and artificial.

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