Lift and Place - How the LPGA is trying to ruin F&F golf

[Rob Rigg]

At the Safeway Classic at Pumpkin Ridge - Ghost Creek this week, the LPGA decided that the "second cut" of rough had not grown in appropriately - "it was spotty in places" - so it was decided that the ladies could life and place in the second cut.

On more than one occassion, I saw a golfer use this to their advantage to significantly improve their lie. One was on a downhill that become much more manageable, while another was on a sidehill that became almost flat.

The course was playing in a condition that most of the treehouse would have really liked - ie) firm and fast - a little bit of brown here and there - I thought it looked great.

Anyways - 1) What message does this send to courses chosen for tournaments? 2) What does this say about "pro" golf - When you go in the rough you should be able to lift, place and tee up your next shot? Interesting.

Thoughts?

[Bill_McBride]

They should have stayed at CECC!

[Rob Rigg]

Bill,

Funny you should say that - I enjoy both courses - I really enjoy playing Ghost on a regular basis - but I can see how the LPGA would prefer the immaculate, vibrant and lush conditions of a course such as CECC.

It will be interesting to see if they "move back".

But still, how can you give someone relief from hitting in the rough? Your lie is no worse than what anyone could get from sitting in a fairway divot. Unreal BS.

Sidenote - I think the F&F conditions at Ghost right now are fantastic.

[mike_beene]

The whole lift clean and place thing drives me crazy.I cant remember the last time I played it,but every other week they are using it on TV.This rough deal, coupled with the attitudes at the Solheim cup,pretty much removes my desire to watch any LPGA golf.I wish them well in all three remaining tournaments next year.

[Carl Johnson]

It's not just the LPGA.  The PGA had fairway lift and place at Liberty National last week.  They're pros.  Let them deal with it if the choose courses that tend to be mushy.

[Dan King]

How are they doing this and still playing golf by the rules? Seems the committee is violating rule 1-3. I believe the rules allow the committee to play lift, clean and cheat, but don't the conditions have to warrant it?

Cheers,
Dan King

If you call on God to improve the results of a shot while it is still in motion, you are using `an outside agency' and subject to appropriate penalties under the rules of golf.
  --Henry Longhurst

[tlavin]

Lift, clean and fellate is cheating, period.  There's no way they should do it in the rough.  That's an abuse if ever I heard one.

[Garland Bayley]

I agree with Rob that the fairways looked to be dry fast and firm. However, there were places in the rough that were so soggy and soft a ball could land and disappear. It seems it was only places like that where the players even considered taking advantage of the ruling.

[Adam Clayman]

Garland, The original post said relief was taken on downhill and side hill lies. How are they the soggy portions?

Apparently we need more facts before really ridiculing the action. There must be a reason other than those given on this thread. Does the super at PR only follier feed? That will make the ball sit down every time and make for a long day.

One reason I can think of which makes business sense for the tour. They do not want to embarrass their pros. In that light (the profit motive) the rules of golf are but an inconvenience.   

[Garland Bayley]

Garland, The original post said relief was taken on downhill and side hill lies. How are they the soggy portions?
...

Poor soils, poor drainage. Bot probably mostly an attempt to grow deep rough for the event. You know the stuff Geoff Ogilvy complains about.
One place I saw was on a steep slope that leveled off for a short distance. Clearly they had been pouring a lot of water on the slope to grow the grass high, thereby creating a swamp out of the short more level, slightly downhill portion.

The only time I saw this perhaps taking place was left of a par 3 (11 I think). I saw the player summon the other two players and they were surrounded by a group of spectators. By the time I got there and in a position to see what was going on the other players had left and the ball was sitting nicely and sparkling clean on a good lie. Without knowing they were playing clean and place, I assumed it had been an embedded ball.

[Pete_Pittock]

    The article I read said that lift clean and place was in effect in the step cut between the fairway/closely mown area and the primary rough because
the high summer temperatures killed a lot of grasses leaving bare spots. Relief had to remain within the step cut. I did not see the conditions of competition sheet or local rules sheet. It wasn't just for sidehill, downhill, damp areas, but given the situation most competitors will seek to gain whatever advantage they can based on what others might be allowed to do. The potenial for improvement of the situation was substantial, but that occurs whenever you have ball in hand, free of penalty. It diminshes the product. Maybe the LPGA is over budget and saving money using less paint is their solution.
   By the way, Portland is one day short of tying the record for 90/+ days in a year, and set or tied the record for 100/+days.

[Garland Bayley]

I have seen the Seniors play the Tradition at The Reserve. They were playing lift clean and place in the fairway in August! They take it to extremes. The would lift every ball, clean it, and place in the nicest raised position you could find nearby. Either the ladies were not playing lift clean and place, or they don't understand how to use the rule like the seniors do. The only movement of a ball that I witnessed would be the one I mentioned above.

[Garland Bayley]

...   By the way, Portland is one day short of tying the record for 90/+ days in a year, and set or tied the record for 100/+days.

Perhaps the significance of this is that courses poor water on heavily during the heat to keep the poa anna alive. My home course is softest on the hottest days. We don't have the staff to syringe greens during these times.

[Dan Herrmann]

should be called, Lift, Clean & Cheat.

[Anthony_Nysse]

should be called, Lift, Clean & Cheat.

My dad has always called it that....

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

[Rob Rigg]

Adam,

As Pete said - the L,C and C - occurred on the "step cut" of rough due to "bare patches" in that second cut due to the heat.

That is what is so frustrating - this was not relief from swamp or areas of the course that may have been "soggy" - the relief was, in theory, from a less than ideal lie in the second cut - a bare patch.

The women I saw taking relief had "perfect" lies, just not the optimal angle. ie) sidehill/downhill - it was absurd.

[Garland Bayley]

Adam,

As Pete said - the L,C and C - occurred on the "step cut" of rough due to "bare patches" in that second cut due to the heat.

That is what is so frustrating - this was not relief from swamp or areas of the course that may have been "soggy" - the relief was, in theory, from a less than ideal lie in the second cut - a bare patch.

The women I saw taking relief had "perfect" lies, just not the optimal angle. ie) sidehill/downhill - it was absurd.

It sounds like you are describing ground that would/should have been marked GUR. However, instead of a drop, they were allowed to place.

I say lay off the women until you can get the men to stop lifting a perfectly clean ball and placing it as best they can on a beautiful sunny August western Oregon day.

[Kalen Braley]

...   By the way, Portland is one day short of tying the record for 90/+ days in a year, and set or tied the record for 100/+days.

Perhaps the significance of this is that courses poor water on heavily during the heat to keep the poa anna alive. My home course is softest on the hottest days. We don't have the staff to syringe greens during these times.

I can relate to this.

In the summers the greens are usually the worst in SLC too cause it gets so damn hot they have to water a ton to keep em alive...or so they say.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Lift, clean and fellate is cheating, period.  There's no way they should do it in the rough.  That's an abuse if ever I heard one.

that sounds like something one should find on the Hooters tour!

[Pete_Pittock]

Witch Hollow is hosting a Mid-Am sectional Wednesday. I'll check to see how we proceed with balls in the step-cut. I'm guessing it will be "play hard".

[Joe Hancock]

Probably not the right place to ask this, but why should anything but disrupted soil(ruts, irrigation repair, etc.) be marked as GUR? In previous centuries, they played plenty of shots off bare ground without relief.

Sad.

[Craig Sweet]

Lift and place at Liberty National?  Yeah, I don't know how many drives I saw hit and plug...it looked like they were hitting into a sponge...

[mike_beene]

The worst is watching them hold the ball and hovering around to get it perfect with the seam like they want it or with the label helping them line up.I am surprised we have never had a thread on using the markings on the ball to line up during lift clean and cheat.

[Rob Rigg]

I played Ghost twice today and had zero issues with the second cut.

A couple of second cut areas had been marked GUR (per Garland's comment) - in the other second cut areas the grass was just "browned out" here and there.

The rough was also a mix of brown fluffy and deep thick cabbage which provided another element of challenge which was fantastic.

Keep it on the fairway, you know what you are going to get.

Off the fairway, better hope for some luck.

[Craig Sweet]

I wonder ow much of this is being driven by the players?  Perhaps they are demanding "better" conditioning going into tournament play?