[Tom MacWood]

Ally
Cairnes was friendly with many of the top British amateurs of the period, including Colt, and HSC may have had some influence, but Cairnes was a very active and well respected designer in his own right. I know Darwin (another top amateur) gave him full credit. I didn't know Morrison was responsible for the 8th, 9th and 18th holes. What year was that?

I'm not certain who is responsible for the Klondyke, but I do know it existed as earlier as 1902, so it is prior to Charles Gibson's redesign.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Tom,

It was the 8th, 10th and 18th holes that Morrison was responsible for. The routing in the first two cases was changed, providing brand new holes (albeit from approximately the same teeing areas). The 18th was reduced from a par-5 to a par-4 by introducing a new green site 60 yards in front of the previous green. These were as a result of his 1953 report of which I have a copy and which also recommend other changes to the course. The first changes were implemented in 1954 with the 18th green change happening late in 1956.

I know Cairnes himself took full responsibility for those changes to the other holes (at least according to Eddie Hackett who was good friends with him). It just seems to me a possibility that some of them were made on the recommendation of Harry Colt, given the timeframe and the fact that Colt was referenced as having made "improvements" to the course in 1919. I am unsure of Cairnes other credentials as a designer but would love to know more?

With regards to Lahinch, the club are positive that at least the first four holes were modified (and Klondyke introduced) somewhere between the original course and Gibson's course of 1907. This is confirmed by a detailed Irish Times description of the course dated from 1895 which has no Klondyke but does include Dell. I will investigate these changes more in October.

[Niall C]

Tommy Mac

It seems clear that you choose to ignore some documents Melvyn presented and that perhaps Melvyn has done the same - though I don't think Melvyn ever excluded A Simpson from the design of Cruden Bay.  Either way, to suggest OTM had nothing to do with Cruden Bay is stretching your argument - if that is your argument.  There is still a considerable amount of architecture at Cruden Bay from the A Simpson/OTM days to not give full credit to T Simpson and tangentally Fowler.  Without definitive proof I don't know how you can determine the detailed origins of today's Cruden Bay without mentioning OTM as a serious player in the design.

Ciao

Does anyone have any information what OTM/A Simpson/T Simpson/Fowler actually did at Cruden Bay other than they did something ? The reason I ask is that I have seen an article reporting A Simpson going to CB (off the top of my head late 1890's) and talking about him getting it into shape (either the condition or design I'm not sure), which of course suggests that there already was a course. Secondly I have seen an article from the mid 1920's which credits John McAndrew, the long time pro/greenkeeper with designing/building (can't remember how it was phrased) the par 3 4th (?) and 13(?). Sorry guys, I don't have my notes to hand but will try to come back to you on it.

Niall

[Sean_A]

Niall

This is what I believe OTM is responsible for at Cruden Bay.  I think A Simpson was 2nd fiddle, but that doesn't mean h didn't contribute.

OTM's 3rd probably follows the same line as today, but with a different green and tee.  #s 1 & 2 look to have at parts of the holes lost to St Olaf's.

The 6th green looks like it could be OTM's, but the routing is changed due to St Olaf's.  #s 4 & 5 would be buried in St Olaf's as well.

The plateau green 7th looks to be OTM's with a completely different route turned into a dogleg.

OTM's #s 8 & 9 don't look to fit all with the current design.

#9 looks like the same line as OTM's 10th.

#10 looks to be very similar to OTM's 11th.

#s 11 & 12 look very different, but over roughly the same ground as OTM's 12th and 13th.

#13 looks like an OTM green site using the routing of OTM's #s 13 & 14.

#14 doesn't have much choice other than to follow OTM's 15th - the green is likely the same.

The final four holes don't look to be OTM holes.

Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

Does anyone have any information what OTM/A Simpson/T Simpson/Fowler actually did at Cruden Bay other than they did something ? The reason I ask is that I have seen an article reporting A Simpson going to CB (off the top of my head late 1890's) and talking about him getting it into shape (either the condition or design I'm not sure), which of course suggests that there already was a course. Secondly I have seen an article from the mid 1920's which credits John McAndrew, the long time pro/greenkeeper with designing/building (can't remember how it was phrased) the par 3 4th (?) and 13(?). Sorry guys, I don't have my notes to hand but will try to come back to you on it.

Niall

Niall
The short answer is no, and I'm very skeptical of anyone who claims they know who did what at CB. The evolution of the course is much more complicated than what is generally known, and there is still a lot of mystery surrounding it. For example when did T. Simpson make his changes, or was it Fowler who made the changes, or did they work together. I have not heard of McAndrew, but nothing would surprise me. I do know pro A. N. Weir made a number of changes early on. I believe Weir was responsible for the 13th, which was the result of combining the original 12th and 13th holes.

[Jim_Kennedy]

edit: wrong thread, oops.

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