The soul of golf.......Askernish

[Steve Salmen]

Michael,

You brought up the frilly edged bunker on 12.  That bunker is completely natural.  So natural in fact that no sand was added, it has always been there.  Also, I have never in my life hit out of sand so wonderful. 

Chuck,

I believe those are the only two bunkers on the course.  The patches of sand you see in various photos are rough spots.  The whole golf course sits on a lot of sand and not all of it is covered by grass.  I believe it adds to the charm of golfing in such a remote place.

Anthony,

The greens were not fast, maybe 4 or 5.  However, they are very undulating and have slopes that we are not used to.  If you found yourself with a downhill downwind putt, aggression would not be the order of the day.  I ran a few 8-10 ft by.  Unfortunately I forgot to pack the persimmon.  A regret I will have to live with until I get back there.

Tony,

There was some litigation with local crofters.  I believe that part of the settlement reached was that sheep are allowed to graze in the winter.

Melvyn,

You mentioned the assistance of the R&A.  They made a 5000 GBP donation.  When they came out, they asked what was done with their donation.  The entire 12th hole was made from their money.  I was told that basically it's a natural hole and a lot of grass was cut to shape the lines of play.  It's not a perfect hole, but a very good one.  With a little work, it can become fantastic, world class.  They have gotten tremendous value for their limited resources.

Marty,

The course is so natural, the design team came up with the layout in one evening (it may have taken place in the pub).

Jim,

The bunker on 8 is artificial.  Keep in mind that the hole is only 249 yds.  I did not think from the fairway that the bunker looked out of place.  Perhaps it would be better if it was not there but I don't know.  There are no fairway bunkers on 10.  Those are sand spots.  That is an economic problem, not architectural.  Also, I personally would not be opposed to eliminating the natural bunker on 12 because it's a forced carry that I hate to see on a course like this.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jim,
The bunker on 8 is artificial.  Keep in mind that the hole is only 249 yds.  I did not think from the fairway that the bunker looked out of place.  Perhaps it would be better if it was not there but I don't know.  There are no fairway bunkers on 10.  Those are sand spots. 
That is an economic problem, not architectural.  Also, I personally would not be opposed to eliminating the natural bunker on 12 because it's a forced carry that I hate to see on a course like this.

Steve,
 All I'm saying is that the 'sand spots' are more in line with what I'd expect on this golf course vs. the very modern bunker. Same thing for the greenside bunker on 8. It would be more in keeping with the era if it was similar to what's seen on #7.

The 'sand spots' are not an economical problem for me, they make the course what it is.

[Tom MacWood]

With the exception of 14, 15 and 16, the property and course looks pretty bland to me. There is not much definition; perhaps the course is not particularly photogenic?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jim

Your comment is precisely what I have been arguing against for most of my golfing life. The course is natural and offers all the challenge of a true links course, but that appears not to be acceptable to you. You seem to be saying you want it artificially shaped and contoured to match your opinion as to how a golf course should appear.

Sorry, just cannot agree with you. By all means comment on the appearance of certain features but play the course before committing yourself to as to how the bunkers may play depending on conditions.

The Magic of Askernish is that it reflects how golf was and is played in many parts of Scotland. It may not be to your taste, you may well want the well manicured, artificially courses, but that is all they are ARTIFICIAL, lacking of any pedigree or feel or Spirit. Their hazards are more related to the appearance of the course than how they challenge the golfers. Most I expect will jump on a cart for a round being I suppose the appropriate way to treat this type of fake course with its contrived landscape. Nevertheless, if that is the way you like your courses then you will certainly not want to challenge your golfing ability or come to openly embrace the real Spirit of Links Golf.

Pity, as I feel you would really enjoy the experience. Askernish is a Mini adventure, but many do not like to leave their comfort zone, sacred of the unknown and challenge that awaits them. This is one of the few places in the world that you can take a non-golfing wife and still have a great relaxing time.


Steve

Yes, I am well aware of the miniscule amount extended by the R&A for this project. It is one of the reasons why I mentioned that they could learn some lessons from Askernish, however, they are slow at reacting. I believe they are still contemplating modifying the ball and have been talking about it since 1922.

Melvyn

   

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

Check out the Askernish web site for some more photos of the course the link is http://www.askernishgolfclub.com/pictures.php .

To us poor old guys who live in within the Isles, this is what we call an honest links course. It’s not appealing to all but to us the true believers its Heaven on Earth.

Melvyn

[Jim_Kennedy]

Melyvn,
Your reading comprehension reading skills are pathetic.

[Brian Phillips]

Melvyn,

Can you tell us your thoughts about the course as you played it? Hole by hole.  Which holes stood out for you etc..

Thanks.

Brian

[Adrian_Stiff]

Whilst it is all 'very lovely and pure, untouched merely mown and has few additions. I think that most people wont 'get this' and would be dissapointed in playing this course if they werent told about the history and the discovery.
To me the course could be 'bettered' with additional bunkering and obviously conditioning, remember in the summer these greens wont hold much and those aprons and approaches look a bit rugged for playing golf. The routing looks very good though and the whole landscape glorious. I really don't think you could play proper golf as it is and you would be pretty pissed off trying to actually get your approaches onto these greens, but perhaps thats the pictures and you can, or will be able in time to as the condition improves.

[David Sneddon]

If you're not moved looking at these, you need therapy (or a damn good Single Malt!!!)
FBD.

Martin, I'd suggest that if one wasn't moved by these pictures, you don't deserve a Single Malt !!!!!!

I'd say that Askernish and Single Malt would be a perfectly matched pair.  Talisker anyone

[Steve Salmen]

If you go to Askernish, your experience will be far greater if you go with an open mind.  If you think the soul of golf lies in perfectly manicured fairways and greens, you will not find it at Askernish (yet).  I refer to it as the soul of golf because first, it's a decent sized commitment just to get there.  Second, the course itself meanders around and through wonderful dunes land.  Third, and possibly most important comes from the spirit of the people at the club. 

I can't say that it will ever be in the condition of Muirfield or Dornoch, but it will improve a lot.  The golf course is very important to the people of the area.  Many residents on Uist donated money and joined the club even though they don't golf. The island of South Uist has just 2,000 residents.  They know what they have and will also act deliberately so nothing is done to jeopardize what they have already achieved.

It is an honor for me to have been there.  In some way, I feel like I have whored my experience by posting the pics and sharing my thoughts in order to feed my stupid ego.

[Anthony Gray]

If you go to Askernish, your experience will be far greater if you go with an open mind.  If you think the soul of golf lies in perfectly manicured fairways and greens, you will not find it at Askernish (yet).  I refer to it as the soul of golf because first, it's a decent sized commitment just to get there.  Second, the course itself meanders around and through wonderful dunes land.  Third, and possibly most important comes from the spirit of the people at the club. 

I can't say that it will ever be in the condition of Muirfield or Dornoch, but it will improve a lot.  The golf course is very important to the people of the area.  Many residents on Uist donated money and joined the club even though they don't golf. The island of South Uist has just 2,000 residents.  They know what they have and will also act deliberately so nothing is done to jeopardize what they have already achieved.

It is an honor for me to have been there.  In some way, I feel like I have whored my experience by posting the pics and sharing my thoughts in order to feed my stupid ego.

  Steve,

  You are a true golfer not just one that plays golf. Your approach to the game is refreshing. I hope to see you soon in Scotland.

  Anthony

[Mike Hendren]

Mel,

I might not be the brightest guy on here, but what part of check yes or no did you not understand?

Do you like the bunker?

Steve, neither of us will ever know if in fact that bunker "has always been there."  Nonetheless, I call bullsh*t for the record.

Mike

Mike

[Tom MacWood]

Melvyn
Didn't you find an old newspaper article regarding this golf course? Could you post it again?

[Tom MacWood]

If you go to Askernish, your experience will be far greater if you go with an open mind.  If you think the soul of golf lies in perfectly manicured fairways and greens, you will not find it at Askernish (yet).  I refer to it as the soul of golf because first, it's a decent sized commitment just to get there.  Second, the course itself meanders around and through wonderful dunes land.  Third, and possibly most important comes from the spirit of the people at the club. 

I can't say that it will ever be in the condition of Muirfield or Dornoch, but it will improve a lot.  The golf course is very important to the people of the area.  Many residents on Uist donated money and joined the club even though they don't golf. The island of South Uist has just 2,000 residents.  They know what they have and will also act deliberately so nothing is done to jeopardize what they have already achieved.

It is an honor for me to have been there.  In some way, I feel like I have whored my experience by posting the pics and sharing my thoughts in order to feed my stupid ego.

Steve
Who said anything about condition? I said the course in many of the photos looks bland. It lacks definition. I must say all the photos on the website look good. That has to be one of the slickest website of any club Scotland. Having the membership applications on there is a great idea.

Could you explain why "the soul of golf" can be found more readily at Askernish rather than Machrie, Machrihanish or Musselburgh?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

As requested I attach one three page article from The Scotsman Newspaper dated the 6th August 1891regards Askernish.


There are quite a few more references on Askernish in various newspapers and a couple of books, however, I have passed on all my information to the club, some of which has been used within their web site. One book refers to the St Andrews Professional but not OTM by name and is called “A School in South Uist” – Reminiscences of a Hebridean Schoolmaster 1890-1913 by F G Rea. The course is mentioned and the Schoolmaster plays on it quite regularly.   

I am about to meet Gordon Irving for the fist time within the next few days as I want to get the full story of how the course was discovered and then re-opened. Really looking forward to our meeting as he has many photos and plans. 

Melvyn

PS Tom, I think you need to be there, to feel and to understand why some talk about the ‘soul of Golf’. It is more down to experiencing the course, its just difficult to explain using just words.

[Tom MacWood]

Where did the Horace Hutchinson connection come from? I don't see his name mentioned in this artilce or the article on the website Hutchinson was avid fisherman - I'm wondering if that may have been what brought him there.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

To be honest I have not pursued Horace’s involvement much. The only connection we have found is that he attended Stornoway with Old Tom in 1891. The intention of the visit was to check out the new Stornoway 9 hole course, before returning to St Andrews.

The Stornoway club were given as a memento of their visit two photographs. These photos were placed in a timber and brass framed with glass and have remained I the club ever since.

I contacted the club a couple of years ago and asked the question about the pictures. It is now or was in the Secretary’s office, while he was happy to send me a copy, he was not willing to remove the photos from the frame to do so. The final result is what you see on Askernish web site, a photo of a photo through glass, hence the distortion. Yet what I find more than strange is that the photos are not taken at the club or at the time of the visit but had been taken well before and both carried around these photos for I presume such occasions. When I received them, I was rather disappointed believing for some reason that would be of the two of them overlooking the Stornoway course and not from a photographic studio.

I know that Horace did travel with Old Tom in the early 1890’s to many course, as for Askernish I do not know if this was OTM first or second trip to the island when accompanied by Horace. South Uist was well known for its fishing.

Hope that answers your question, perhaps in time when I have completed my search of the Cathcart records I may have more.

Melvyn

[Steve Salmen]

Could you explain why "the soul of golf" can be found more readily at Askernish rather than Machrie, Machrihanish or Musselburgh?

Tom,

I'm glad you asked because it gave me a chance to evaluate what the soul of golf means.  I've concluded that it is completely subjective.  It is the place you have your greatest spiritual golf experiences.  For some it could be Sand Hills, for some it could be Bethpage Black, or just as easliy a muni in an urban environment.  It really does not matter because it is individually based.

Fortunately I have played Musselburgh, Machrie, and Machrihanish.  To me personally, Machrie is tainted by the hotel and Musselburgh is violated by the racetrack, Ma Foreman's Pub, and the proximity to the town.  Machrihanish (and the other two) are pretty much fully developed and are not going to really get better. 

Askernish is a work in progress.  It's best days are in the future.  It is not yet drawing golfers by the thousands but by the hundreds.  My wife and I had the course to ourselves.  To me, the soul of golf is really far out of the way.  It is also a place where golf is as it was a hundred years ago.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom Mac

I have just had an E-mail from Ralph at Askernish re Horace.

The history they have is that Horace accompanied Old Tom in 1891when he laid out the course, but mainly for the Fishing. They left and travelled up to Harris to Stornoway. A Dr Robertson (now deceased) spoke to an old gillie when he first visited South Uist (1958), who when as a young lad gillied for Horace when he was on the island.

Melvyn

[Garland Bayley]

Ralph, first it was great to meet you at Kingsley.  That said, what percentage of golfers at Askernish will actually play a gutty?

I wouldn't use a bunker at all, but if someone held a gun to my head I would merely scar the ground and let nature follow suit to create a deep but narrow bunker that could be skirted to sneak a ball around it off the bank right of the green, bearing in mind that I'm only looking at a two dimensional photograph of the hole.  Alternatively one could simply dig a pot and stack some sod on the green side, but I sure as heck wouldn't flash any sand - its visually offensive. 

That bunker is uglier than a bowling shoe, which like today's spashed up frilly edged bunker was somehow fashionable just a few short years ago. 

Kindest regards,

Mike

Further to Steve Salmen wonderful post on Askernish, Ralph Thompson of Askernish has ask that I post on his behalf the following

Since Steve posted his blog on the GCA.com website, the main discussion seems to have been whether it was right to put in a frilly edged bunker on the twelfth.
 
Could you please inform everybody that the bunker in question is a natural sand blown hole and not manmade. That is why we are calling it the most natural golf course on earth.
 
...
Ralph Thompson
Askernish Golf Club
1st Sept.2009

Bogey,

Didn't want you to miss this.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Garland

The modern idea is that all bunkers are man made. They could never be made by nature.  As I said, I think there is a lesson to be learnt at Askernish

I believe that the reason why some are not going is because they are nervous. Even with all the electronic aids, they will still not be able to judge the wind, or perhaps have never played a Links course before, so are just simply scared.
The weather generally protects this course in a way TOC can’t.  Something to do, I expect with all that hot air coming across the Atlantic from the West. 

What a waste, get out there and test your game against the old timers with their gutta percha and Hickory shafted clubs. They had Gutta Percha Balls just what are yours made of?

Melvyn

[Aidan Bradley]

Football, South Uist style............

[Gene Greco]

Ralph, first it was great to meet you at Kingsley.  That said, what percentage of golfers at Askernish will actually play a gutty?

I wouldn't use a bunker at all, but if someone held a gun to my head I would merely scar the ground and let nature follow suit to create a deep but narrow bunker that could be skirted to sneak a ball around it off the bank right of the green, bearing in mind that I'm only looking at a two dimensional photograph of the hole.  Alternatively one could simply dig a pot and stack some sod on the green side, but I sure as heck wouldn't flash any sand - its visually offensive. 

That bunker is uglier than a bowling shoe, which like today's spashed up frilly edged bunker was somehow fashionable just a few short years ago. 

Kindest regards,

Mike

Further to Steve Salmen wonderful post on Askernish, Ralph Thompson of Askernish has ask that I post on his behalf the following

Since Steve posted his blog on the GCA.com website, the main discussion seems to have been whether it was right to put in a frilly edged bunker on the twelfth.
 
Could you please inform everybody that the bunker in question is a natural sand blown hole and not manmade. That is why we are calling it the most natural golf course on earth.
 
...
Ralph Thompson
Askernish Golf Club
1st Sept.2009

Bogey,

Didn't want you to miss this.

Bump again for Senior Bogero Hendren.

[Kalen Braley]

I find it odd that the bunker on 12 is getting all the attention on this thread when I thought it was the bunker on #8 that actually looked man-made.



With those smoothed off edges and the tongues being similar in size I would have guessed this wasn't mother natures doing, but I could be wrong.

P.S.  I'm curious what will happen if a bunker begins to form in the middle of a green?  Will it become the lastest version of Riviera or will it be stamped out?

Kalen

[Jim_Kennedy]

Kalen,

No, it was brought up earlier, and then glossed over.

Saddest thing about this whole thread is that even though a couple of glaring modernisms have been pointed out everyone seems to be saying how nice it is to see a naturally evolving course, but the 'proponents' of the course keep misinterpreting that as some kind of negative criticism.

Remarkable.