The soul of golf.......Askernish

[Mark Pearce]

The soul of golf is not found in a slick website or a sharp marketing campaign.

No-one will disagree with that.

Despite the PR campaign and the playing up of OTM and HGH Askernish is at the end of the day a modern golf course, and not a particular well designed one from the photos.

You appear to be missing the point.  You also appear to be judging a course's design entirely on the basis of photographs.  Do you think that's fair, or even possible?

IMO the soul of golf is found in great golf architecture and I don't see it in your images.

That's one of the most stupid and wrong things I have read on this message board.  I don't know what the "soul of golf" is but I do know it has to do with the game and the way it is played.  To say it is "found in great golf architecture" is pompous and crass and demeans the game and those who play it, particularly those who have found the "soul of golf" and play on rudimentary municipal courses.

[Brian Phillips]

Mark,

I think the key part of my comment was "like the one on 12".

I've noticed several "natural" looking blowout type bunkers in some areas...just not anything resembling the one in the picture here. But I admit that I have limited exposure. I'll take your word that these same type of bunkers naturally occur throughout all of linksland, I'd just like to see some on my next visit...or perhaps some photo evidence...

How lucky for them that it was "naturally formed" in a convenient spot on that hole.

Chris,

Here are two photos North of Brora which also shows natural ground and a "blowout" just appearing to be developed by sheep in the area that take refuge in the hole.

[Mark Chaplin]

Tom MacW - 99% of golfers do not give a monkey's @£$% about the architecture of a golf course. The true spirit of the game is in the little village courses with part time green keepers, honesty boxes and not a sniff of a foreign visitor.

On many old links courses the bunkers are a tidying up of the natural sand scrapes and blow outs - Deal had hundreds of "bunkers" on the early plans most of these were sandy scrapes, the majority are long since filled in. The earlier question of what happens if one appears on a green shows little perception of the idea of time.

[Kalen Braley]

Melyvn,

The coast looks beautiful, the course looks very cool, I'm sure I would thoroughly love a visit to the area/region.  I just didn't particularly care for the over-the-top, beard pulling, flowery fluff manner in which the piece was presented.  Do you really think they honestly feel its the best course in the world?  Which they didn't hesitate to mention on several occasions?

Just sounded like used-car salesman stuff to this yank, but maybe I'm just a bit jaded. 

That being said, let me state again so its crystal clear, I would love to check out the place and give it a go...its looks very neat indeed. 

Kalen

Kalen,

The video clip was not produced for the club.  It is an extract from a very succesful BBC series "Coast", now in its 4th series and which studies the British coastline.  It isn't, therefore, advertising puff in any sense.

Mark,

It sure becomes such when its placed on thier site.  I'm guessing no one hacked the page and embeded it straight on the home page.   

[Niall C]

Kalen

Marks point is that the video clip was produced by someone else for a different reason and not for the benefit of the club. The fact that it is used by the club doesn't make it advert puff/hype. Its like a top pro playing a course and voluntarily saying how great it is and meaning it. The club would be stupid not to quote him, but you couldn't say it was advertising puff unless he had been paid or felt obliged IMO.

Niall

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen

Marks point is that the video clip was produced by someone else for a different reason and not for the benefit of the club. The fact that it is used by the club doesn't make it advert puff/hype. Its like a top pro playing a course and voluntarily saying how great it is and meaning it. The club would be stupid not to quote him, but you couldn't say it was advertising puff unless he had been paid or felt obliged IMO.

Niall

Niall,

I get they didn't make it and I understand they are just linking it to thier site.  But the fact that they have indeed done this means in at least some way they endorse the message...no one forced them to put it up there.  As for me, and this is just me, it was too high on the mozarella scale and way over the top...sorry it isn't my thing.

As I've said before, I think the course looks fantastic and I would love to play it, so i'm not in any way being critical of the course. 

On a side note, if this venue wasn't destined for a throw-back BUDA cup event with hickories and old scratchy wool knickers,  then I don't know what is...hint, hint!! 

[Mark Chaplin]

With membership at £125p.a. I'm sure a Buda would be good for membership as well. For lovers of the traditional game it would be worth a membership to keep a classic as it should be.

[Mark Pearce]

Kalen,

I think we've established that this is a club not exactly rolling in cash.  A piece of high quality video featuring the course is available.  What would you have them do?  Invest money they can't afford in something a bit less glowing?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kalen

“Just sounded like used-car salesman stuff to this yank, but maybe I'm just a bit jaded”.

Coast is an excellent informative programme backed by the Open University, the clip they used is excellent and interesting showing the nature of the island and its weather.

“Just didn't particularly care for the over-the-top, beard pulling, flowery fluff manner in which the piece was presented.” You mean like saying to everyone “Have a nice Day”. That grates with me as it come across in such an uninteresting and boring way.

Whatever you are entitled to your opinion, I feel it sets the mood and when you read most of the reports over the last two years seem rather accurate. But, hey what do I know, you, Jim K and Tom Mac are the masters. Thank God, many of your fellow countrymen feel totally different, deciding to experience the course first hand.

Have a nice day Kallleeeennnn, I mean that most sincerely

Melvyn

[Chris DeNigris]

Brian,

Thanks for sharing the photos of authentic, rough, natural blow out scottish bunkers...I've seen some of these and appreciate mother nature's architectural skills.

However, my point was, these (and all of the other scarred bunker formations at Askernish) bear little resemblence to the greenside bunker on 12 that Mike H and others found incongruent with the rest of the course. Locals apparently have apparently vouched for it's non man-made origins, but to me that seems tough to swallow.

Maybe there's a limit to how many human-altered features can exist on a course before it can't be considered the world's most natural.

[Tom MacWood]

The soul of golf is not found in a slick website or a sharp marketing campaign.

No-one will disagree with that.

Despite the PR campaign and the playing up of OTM and HGH Askernish is at the end of the day a modern golf course, and not a particular well designed one from the photos.

You appear to be missing the point.  You also appear to be judging a course's design entirely on the basis of photographs.  Do you think that's fair, or even possible?

IMO the soul of golf is found in great golf architecture and I don't see it in your images.

That's one of the most stupid and wrong things I have read on this message board.  I don't know what the "soul of golf" is but I do know it has to do with the game and the way it is played.  To say it is "found in great golf architecture" is pompous and crass and demeans the game and those who play it, particularly those who have found the "soul of golf" and play on rudimentary municipal courses.

Mark
Rudimentary municipal course? The 'soul of golf' is a meaningless phrase created by some PR jackass trying to sell subscriptions to the uninitiated.  

What is your opinion of Askernish?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacW - 99% of golfers do not give a monkey's @£$% about the architecture of a golf course. The true spirit of the game is in the little village courses with part time green keepers, honesty boxes and not a sniff of a foreign visitor.

On many old links courses the bunkers are a tidying up of the natural sand scrapes and blow outs - Deal had hundreds of "bunkers" on the early plans most of these were sandy scrapes, the majority are long since filled in. The earlier question of what happens if one appears on a green shows little perception of the idea of time.

This site was created for the 1% who do care.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

You just do not have a clue. There is only one jackass here and its you. But then just what is it that you actually know? Certainly very little about the game in our country. I think I am going back to ignoring you altogether.

Melvyn

[Mark Pearce]

Tom,

What I think of Askernish is that it looks fascinating from the pictures I have seen and I'd love to play it.  I also know it's possibly the only new course my wife is positively keen to play.

[Brian Phillips]

Brian,

Thanks for sharing the photos of authentic, rough, natural blow out scottish bunkers...I've seen some of these and appreciate mother nature's architectural skills.

However, my point was, these (and all of the other scarred bunker formations at Askernish) bear little resemblence to the greenside bunker on 12 that Mike H and others found incongruent with the rest of the course. Locals apparently have apparently vouched for it's non man-made origins, but to me that seems tough to swallow.

Maybe there's a limit to how many human-altered features can exist on a course before it can't be considered the world's most natural.

I agree entirely.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Regarding the bunker at 12,

I see no reason to believe that this is not a natural blowout. In itself, it is entirely consistent with the size, shape and look of other blowouts that I've seen. It is built in to a natural ridge where rabbits likely burrowed and destabilised the vegetation. What makes it look "unnatural" is the fact that you have maintained short grass all around it with little or no other bare sand. That and its depth probably accounts for the well formed look.

I do not know the course routing but other factors that would give weight to the naturalness (or not) of this bunker are how close it is positioned to the shore line (the closer to the shore, the plants are more specialised and succeptible to damage) and whether it faces in to the prevailing wind.

To answer Mike's question posed at Melvyn.... I like it.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

What I think of Askernish is that it looks fascinating from the pictures I have seen and I'd love to play it.  I also know it's possibly the only new course my wife is positively keen to play.

I'm sure the village is lovely, but we disagree in our reading of the pictures. I think most of the course looks boring in the pictures. By the way save the BS about judging a course from photos, we all do it. Most of us chose where and how far we will go based on photos.

I also do not appreciate taking what is modern golf course and selling the idea that it is historic one that has something to do with OTM in order to sell subscriptions to the uninitiated. That golf course has nothing to do with OTM or Hutchinson, and Melvyn's support for this BS is bizarre.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I also do not appreciate taking what is modern golf course and selling the idea that it is historic one that has something to do with OTM in order to sell subscriptions to the uninitiated. That golf course has nothing to do with OTM or Hutchinson, and Melvyn's support for this BS is bizarre.

How many tee & green sites are there from the original course?.... Do we know?.... Is the routing similar?

Or is all this information lost?

[Brian Phillips]

Tom,

If the routing used is the old OTM routing, does it then not have a lot to do with OTM?  That has to be proven first though.

[Tom MacWood]

I agree, but that is not the case here. They had nothing to go on, no maps, no plans, no photos. They weren't even sure of the precise location of the old course. Trying to sell it as a restored OTM course is distasteful IMO.

[Mark Pearce]

Tom,

What I think of Askernish is that it looks fascinating from the pictures I have seen and I'd love to play it.  I also know it's possibly the only new course my wife is positively keen to play.

I'm sure the village is lovely, but we disagree in our reading of the pictures. I think most of the course looks boring in the pictures. By the way save the BS about judging a course from photos, we all do it. Most of us chose where and how far we will go based on photos.

I also do not appreciate taking what is modern golf course and selling the idea that it is historic one that has something to do with OTM in order to sell subscriptions to the uninitiated. That golf course has nothing to do with OTM or Hutchinson, and Melvyn's support for this BS is bizarre.

Tom,

OK.  I' have seen other pictures of the course and some on the website, that look great.  It's clear there has been at least a significant effort to identify the original course.  How succesful they have been is not something I am in a position to comment on.  I wonder how well placed you are?

I frankly find your obvious antipathy to the project mystifying.  It couldn't be that you are using it as a way of continuing a grudge against a poster who is known to be a supporter of Askernish?

[Tom MacWood]

Mark
Instead of trying to read some hidden rational for my opinions just stick with what I wrote, and feel free to disagree. I think much of the property and the golf course looks boring in the pictures, their website is very slick and they are overplaying the OTM association.

[Dan Herrmann]

For what it's worth, this Philly guy loves what I'm seeing.  We need to preserve gems like this, for preserving and studying our heritage is the key to future growth.

[Sean_A]

Tom,

What I think of Askernish is that it looks fascinating from the pictures I have seen and I'd love to play it.  I also know it's possibly the only new course my wife is positively keen to play.

I'm sure the village is lovely, but we disagree in our reading of the pictures. I think most of the course looks boring in the pictures. By the way save the BS about judging a course from photos, we all do it. Most of us chose where and how far we will go based on photos.

I also do not appreciate taking what is modern golf course and selling the idea that it is historic one that has something to do with OTM in order to sell subscriptions to the uninitiated. That golf course has nothing to do with OTM or Hutchinson, and Melvyn's support for this BS is bizarre.

I agree with Tommy Mac.  At least I judge a course enough by pix to give me an idea if I want to visit and play it as I think you can tell a lot about a course from golfes' perspective pix.  I don't get some sort of archie thrill just by looking for cryin out loud.  I leave that to the true wing nuts around here.  Though I must say that Askernish looks good to me, but it is hard to tell in the pix.  Sometimes this happens.  I can recall not getting a sense about Southern Hills when viewing pix.  Perhaps the difference in opinion about Askernish is partly down to differences in what architecture is.  I recall Wayne Morrison and Tom P stating that they didn't believe the use of natural terrain was architecture until some man-made aspect is introduced.  I totally disagree and perhaps this difference of opinion of what architecture is what Tommy Mac is hinting at - I don't know.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Mark
Instead of trying to read some hidden rational for my opinions just stick with what I wrote, and feel free to disagree. I think much of the property and the golf course looks boring in the pictures, their website is very slick and they are overplaying the OTM association.

I think you'll find I did just disagree.  I like the look of the place and would love to visit.  Do I think it's likely to be a great example of "architecture"?  NO.  Do I think I'd enjoy playing it (and that my wife and kids would as well)?  Yes, I do.  Not as a replacement for the great links courses but as a dose of fun and a reality check.