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Melvyn Morrow

Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #100 on: September 03, 2009, 07:46:59 AM »

Tom

As usual, Tom MacWood talks out of his backside. No proof yet expects others to furnish proof when he demands it.

As for Askernish you have done no serious research, you have not spoken to the people at Askernish, you know, what’s that term you use in the States ‘Diddly Squat’

Tom, your ignorance goes before you, just what do you know about Askernish? You know zero about its links to other courses, its construction or have any living tradition to rely upon. The site of the old course has always been known, so have the sites of the Greens. As with all research, it is on going. Nevertheless, you have made up your mind with a fraction of the information available. That must say something about the quality and standards of your own research 

I even question your commitment to golf and your interest in the game.

Ask and say what you want you will, you are just a total waste of space.

Melvyn

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #101 on: September 03, 2009, 12:23:31 PM »
Melvyn- I really dont think Tom has said all those things, his main point iniatally was that it looks a little bland in places. I showed our team in the pro shop and they used that same word although it does hot up abit after 6 or 7 holes. A lot of people don't get Westward Ho! and a lot dont like Painswick. The (sad) majority like the courses very well presented, well defined and a course that rewards good shots Askernish does not do this at this moment in time, but it may in the future. Thats not to right off this project because it will attract fans, one lad Matt from our office who is Scottish cant wait to go see it and its somewhere I want to see aswell, the logistics might be the big problem for me.
As for the routing I assumed that this routing was the exact one prior to it being abandoned, anything else would be kinda wrong.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #102 on: September 03, 2009, 12:42:39 PM »
Tom MacW - 99% of golfers do not give a monkey's @£$% about the architecture of a golf course. The true spirit of the game is in the little village courses with part time green keepers, honesty boxes and not a sniff of a foreign visitor.

On many old links courses the bunkers are a tidying up of the natural sand scrapes and blow outs - Deal had hundreds of "bunkers" on the early plans most of these were sandy scrapes, the majority are long since filled in. The earlier question of what happens if one appears on a green shows little perception of the idea of time.

This site was created for the 1% who do care.

Tom,

If you think the soul of golf exists with 1500 nutcases like you and I who inhabit this site, then I suggest you work on vocabulary, comprehension, and reasoning.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #103 on: September 03, 2009, 01:57:26 PM »

Adrian

I have grown up with TOC, of walking through the rear garden at 7 Pilmour Links through our private alleyway with the black door beside Old Tom’s shop straight onto the road facing the 18th Green. I know the four main real St Andrews courses, yet my love is the out of the way courses that are fun, quiet and enjoyable to play. No, not testing but a nice challenge, which generally suits my mood. I see in Askernish one of those real old world courses that offers a Links golfer so much, especially on a windy day.

Relaxing after a game in a local pub, learning where one went wrong, satisfied when all went right. Many here talk of quirky courses, yet I do not see or relate to anything quirky. Many can’t play the game without the need for some sort of distant aid. Some like to rush around on a cart and cram in 18 holes at the end of a day at work, I like to slow it down, walk and play 9 holes properly, letting the stress evaporate and the ozone air fill my lungs as I play.

I am a Man of the Links first and foremost, all other courses are just Second Best IMHO, no matter who designed them. That’s my kind of golf, some may say stark and devoid of trees, but that my friend is a real golf course, its where the game was born, it where I want my game to be., it’s the heart and soul of the game.  The modern game is soft, modern golfers seem to want well-manicured, perfect courses with all mod cons. There is no time for physical exertions, just jump on the cart let it take the strain, don’t think, get out the GPS/Rangefinder or seek distance markers, let them take away the stress of thinking for yourself. Well some of us and it may surprise you that it’s more than just a handful want and enjoy courses like Askernish. We are happy to promote them, as they are IOHO the real thing, one of the reasons we took up golf in the first place. So bland golf courses, just in case all you modern golfers have forgotten is where it started. There is more of a test and challenge to be found on a Links course than on most other courses.

Many questions have been answered on this thread alone regards Askernish. It’s a links course built on the site of Old Tom Morris Cathcart course, short of a modern detailed map, it is as accurate as it can be. There are some of us searching the records looking for a course map or a report on the course to reaffirm its as close as it can be, noting that erosion has had a hand  in helping to shape one or two of the old holes. This course just goes to show what can be done with a very small budge, as I keep reminding the GCA, they  should IMHO take note, visit and talk to Ralph and his team.

Members of Askernish Golf Club do read this site on a very regular basic. They read comments from those who don’t even know where South Uist is let alone ever had an opportunity to play a links course. They will welcome you with open arm and help you enjoy your stay and the experience. Once you have played the course then tell them of your opinion.

That is why I am happy to support this club and its Members.

Melvyn


Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #104 on: September 03, 2009, 02:47:49 PM »
Melvyn,

I agree  and echo your sentiments 100%. Your comments remind me of a story I tell on occasion.

Many years ago I had the good fortune to photograph Royal Dornoch. As I was loading up the buggy with my equipment behind the clubhouse, this wee laddie (12/13) came up to me and asked what I was doing. I told him I was away to photograph the golf course. He asked if he could join me and I agreed but told him I was going to put him to work. The light wasn't the best but I got a few shots and he carried my tripod and sand bag. At the end of the day I gave the lad a "fiver" and he beamed at me and scurried away.

Early the next morning I arrived at the course only to find that the "haar" (Scottish coastal fog) had beaten me to the first tee box. Not being able to shoot I asked the Secretary if I could play the course. "Check with the starter and away ye go" he said. With no one else around I approached the first tee box. No sooner had I put the ball on the peg when the wee lad ran up to me and asked what I was doing. "I can't work because of the haar so I am going to play" said I. He asked if he could caddie for me and I told him if it was ok with the Caddie Master it was fine by me.

I had the good fortune to strike a drive down the middle of the fairway. Upon reaching my ball I started to look around. "What are ye doin" say's the wee lad. "I'm looking for the 150 yard marker". "And why would ye be doin dat"?  "I want to know how far I am from the flag"  He stands in front of me for a minute dumbfounded, then walks up to me and sticks his stubby little finger about one inch from my bloodshot retina ...... "and what would these be far" he asks. "Look at the flag, that's how far away it is" Touche!!!!!!!





Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #105 on: September 03, 2009, 02:53:03 PM »
...and do you know who that Wee Laddie grew up to be? Why, none other than GCA's very own Richard Goodale..... ;D

Nice story, Aidan!

FBD.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 03:43:22 PM by Marty Bonnar »
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #106 on: September 03, 2009, 03:05:10 PM »
Melvyn - I dont disagree with any of the points you have made on Askernish, all I would say is that everyone is different how they like their golf, but you are quite strong sometimes how you voice your opinion on those that ride carts, use GPS, planners, etc. Some things I think are wrong too but others tellme its progress. You really give the Castle Course a real and continued slagging, everytime the name comes up, your back in there like a rottweiller. We all know your views, but just as you say we cant critise Askernish because we have not been there, you should abide by those same rules. I personally think we can form opinions, talk and discuss points on what we have seen by photographs. From my point of view, I want to go to Askernish, I want to go to Castle Stuart and I want to play The Castle Course. I also hope one day we can have a few pints and talk of the history of the game.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #107 on: September 03, 2009, 03:09:04 PM »
...and do you know who that Wee Laddie grew up to be? Why, none other GCA's very own Richard Goodale..... ;D

Nice story, Aidan!

FBD.

Isn't Rich like way older than Aidan?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #108 on: September 03, 2009, 03:13:24 PM »
"Isn't Rich like way older than Aidan?"

You decide, look what all these years of waiting for sunshine has done to me...........


Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #109 on: September 03, 2009, 03:15:14 PM »
BRG,
it's most unlike you to let the truth get in the way of a good story!!! ;D

Aidan Bradley, photographer and Male Model.... :o

FBD.

The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

George_Williams

Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #110 on: September 03, 2009, 03:32:55 PM »
Martin-

I know that Colt 45 is malt liquor, but, what is a Mackenzie 28?

GW

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #111 on: September 03, 2009, 03:38:13 PM »
George,
that caption used to be under a pic of me as James Bond with a gun in my hand, but really relates to:

Third Bullet Point down...

http://www.alistermackenzie.co.uk/history.php

Oh Yeah....

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

George_Williams

Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #112 on: September 03, 2009, 03:48:56 PM »
Martin-

Ah Ha- so it had nothing to do with alcoholic beverages (or weapons)!  Cypress Pt.- ('28), tricky...

GW

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #113 on: September 03, 2009, 04:59:14 PM »
I'm intrigued by the openess. The feedom. Maybe it is the quality of the photos but from this view Askernish looks like it has at least one of the core principles ANGC was originally designed with. The abilility to throw off the better golfer because no one is directing them where to golf their ball. That will be left up to the golfer to figure out, if they ever do. Hendrens rant is getting old and for all that is great about life I sure as shit hope and prey that frilly bunker he objects to is as natural as my frilly curly hair.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 09:48:52 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #114 on: September 03, 2009, 06:37:34 PM »
Hendrens rant is getting old and for all that is great about life I sure as shit hope and prey that frilly bunker he objects to is as natural as my frilly curly hair.

 
The 12th may have a naturally evolved bunker, but in an early report the architects have said: "Bunkers will be formed in the most natural way possible. They will simply be excavated, generally at the site of existing craters, and fringed with marram grasses, in a style similar to those of Royal County Down. This is no place for revetted, manicured bunkers".

In a later report they said:   " Now that permission has been achieved, mowing out of the other greens will commence, and marram fringed bunkers can be cut out with the sand used for top dressing of the greens".


So before you go all Melyvn on Hendren it would be interesting to know how does one decide how 'natural' these bunkers are?
Are they the most natural in the world or are they just the garden variety natural?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 06:40:05 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #115 on: September 03, 2009, 08:06:39 PM »
Jim. Earlier in the thread someone stated that it was natural. Honestly if the antithesis of frilly bunkers are sharp edged ones I'd argue that even the poorly done frilly bunkers are better than the saucer cup trend that came out of the dark ages of GCA.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #116 on: September 03, 2009, 08:13:18 PM »
Michael. I wish I was articulate enough to justify why the irregular shapes are important. I mean no disrespect. Hope you are well.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Peter Pallotta

Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #117 on: September 03, 2009, 08:28:05 PM »
Sometimes I think we've become (or at least, that I've become) like a spoilt child in the courtyard - the other children cried but I wouldn't cry with them; then the other children laughed but I wouldn't join their game.

Someone needs to post one of those 'Ten Worst Courses on Great Sites' lists so that I can go play them all several times and then force myself not to write a word about any of them. Otherwise I fear I'm becoming a poster boy for the 'Retail Golfer as Pain in the Ass' brigade.

My motto is: Out with the old rules, or any rules; in with about a hundred and ten new rules, all of my own devising and subject to change.

And I can't believe that would be a positive step for the long term health of the game, or of golf course architecture.

Peter   

Rich Goodale

Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #118 on: September 04, 2009, 06:05:33 AM »
Melvyn,

I agree  and echo your sentiments 100%. Your comments remind me of a story I tell on occasion.

Many years ago I had the good fortune to photograph Royal Dornoch. As I was loading up the buggy with my equipment behind the clubhouse, this wee laddie (12/13) came up to me and asked what I was doing. I told him I was away to photograph the golf course. He asked if he could join me and I agreed but told him I was going to put him to work. The light wasn't the best but I got a few shots and he carried my tripod and sand bag. At the end of the day I gave the lad a "fiver" and he beamed at me and scurried away.

Early the next morning I arrived at the course only to find that the "haar" (Scottish coastal fog) had beaten me to the first tee box. Not being able to shoot I asked the Secretary if I could play the course. "Check with the starter and away ye go" he said. With no one else around I approached the first tee box. No sooner had I put the ball on the peg when the wee lad ran up to me and asked what I was doing. "I can't work because of the haar so I am going to play" said I. He asked if he could caddie for me and I told him if it was ok with the Caddie Master it was fine by me.

I had the good fortune to strike a drive down the middle of the fairway. Upon reaching my ball I started to look around. "What are ye doin" say's the wee lad. "I'm looking for the 150 yard marker". "And why would ye be doin dat"?  "I want to know how far I am from the flag"  He stands in front of me for a minute dumbfounded, then walks up to me and sticks his stubby little finger about one inch from my bloodshot retina ...... "and what would these be far" he asks. "Look at the flag, that's how far away it is" Touche!!!!!!!






Aidan

I remember well that day in 1978 when I was visiting Dornoch for the first time and you mistook me for a Scotsman and a caddie.  As I had read the original Golf Club Atlas by then and played two rounds on the course the day before, you were putty in my hands, and I am glad you enjoyed the journey.

Rich

PS--my little finger has grown since then, so please do not let my distances of that day adversely influence you in the future.
PPS--that picture of you looks much older than what I remember in 1978.  Are you related to Dorian Gray by marriage and/or consanguity?

j-p p

Steve Salmen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #119 on: September 04, 2009, 02:27:02 PM »
This email was sent to me by Ralph Thompson, captain of the Askernish Golf Club:

"One thing to point out - they are going on about our slick website and sharp marketing campaign. The website was created by my son Rory when he was 15 and he still maintains it. Our marketing budget up to now has been ZERO. Everything that has been writen about the course has been done by independent journalists - we have had no hold over any content.
 
Cant believe that they are still arguing over the bunker at the 12 th and whether it is natural or not - tell them to come and visit and it will be obvious. The bunker at the eighth hole was created by filling in a deep natural swale with sand - thats it couldn't be simpler.
 
Hope your holidays are still going well."

I really hope this clears up some points.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #120 on: September 04, 2009, 03:00:41 PM »
A career beckons for young Ropry Thompson......
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #121 on: September 04, 2009, 04:14:22 PM »
The soul of golf is not found in a slick website or a sharp marketing campaign.
No-one will disagree with that.
Quote
Despite the PR campaign and the playing up of OTM and HGH Askernish is at the end of the day a modern golf course, and not a particular well designed one from the photos.
You appear to be missing the point.  You also appear to be judging a course's design entirely on the basis of photographs.  Do you think that's fair, or even possible?
Quote
IMO the soul of golf is found in great golf architecture and I don't see it in your images.
That's one of the most stupid and wrong things I have read on this message board.  I don't know what the "soul of golf" is but I do know it has to do with the game and the way it is played.  To say it is "found in great golf architecture" is pompous and crass and demeans the game and those who play it, particularly those who have found the "soul of golf" and play on rudimentary municipal courses.

Mark
Rudimentary municipal course? The 'soul of golf' is a meaningless phrase created by some PR jackass trying to sell subscriptions to the uninitiated. 

What is your opinion of Askernish?



"An Ode to the West Seattle Golf Course"

By: David Wood

"As a traveling golfer who has invested steadily in green fees rather than a healthy Roth IRA, I've played about half of the world's 100 top-rated courses and usually eight or so of the top 10 - depending on the yearly rankings."

"Despite my good fortune (at least golfwise), it has continually perplexed me how little joy or laughter I often find with exclusive clubs - which tend to dominate those lofty lists. My beef is not with the courses themselves, which invariably are wonderful, but rather with the grumpy atmosphere created in and around the clubhouses. They make libraries seem like frat houses."

WOW, sounds souless to me! But then there's that riches, needles eye thing.

From
http://www.cybergolf.com/golf_news/an_ode_to_the_west_seattle_golf_course


"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #122 on: September 05, 2009, 12:13:09 PM »
The site of the original golf course at Askernish was always known. The following reports on from 1891 when the course opened and one from 1901 talking about Golf on The Hebrides, confirm the location of the course. So to all those ‘Doubting Thomas’ perhaps check the facts before making any statements in future.

When I was searching for the lost course at Collieston, I only found the course because a lady from the town knew the site of the course because her grandfather played it right up until it was taken over by the War Dept in 1939. The site of Kelvinside was also found with help from an individual who knew the area, our own GCA.com. Niall (Our Man in Glasgow)   
The Scotsman Article from 1891
   
Ths Scotsman Article from 1901

I find the statement from the 1891 report very interesting, which states the following:-
“The short crisp turf, the diverse character of the holes and the variety and form of the bunkers and hazards, together form what is probably the most natural golf course in the Kingdom.”

In addition, the 1901 article confirms the status of the course at Askernish, which reads as follows:-
“As those who have played over the Machrihanish Links in Argyllshire will find out, South Uist links has the same charms of seascape and a wilder and stronger nature.”

As for the ‘most natural golf course in the kingdom’ that seem to have been identified 118 years ago.

Melvyn


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #123 on: September 05, 2009, 01:05:07 PM »
I can see it now. The Sheep Ranch of South Uist! Someone needs to get there and build some green sites, so people can make their own 40 mile links. Which of course raises the question, can you complete 40 miles of golf in a day? I figure some of the diehards on this site play at least 20 miles a day at Bandon, but I don't know how much time they take of to eat, wait for tee times etc.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The soul of golf.......Askernish
« Reply #124 on: September 05, 2009, 02:17:14 PM »
I think most of the course looks boring in the pictures.  

   I don't see what you see.  By default, do I see what you don't see?



Aidan, that photo looks like it could have been painted by Rembrandt.  You've captured the man's half-pint contentment and glow.  
 Great Dornoch story, too.  
« Last Edit: September 05, 2009, 03:09:37 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M