A Call To Michiganders Past And Present

[George Freeman]

I grew up in Traverse City, MI and although I currently live in Chicago, have spent the majority of my life in the gloved state (and I'm damn proud of it!).

My top 10, in no particular order:

Crystal Downs
Kingsley Club
Franklin Hills
Indianwood (Old)
Greywalls
Lost Dunes
Forest Dunes
Belvedere
Arcadia Bluffs

and...the 10th spot must be split between Orchard Lake CC and Barton Hills CC.

Notable courses I have yet to see:  Oakland Hills (South), Black Forest, The Mines, Pilgrim's Run, The Dunes Club, Lakewood Shores (Gailes), Plum Hollow CC, and Tullymore.  I would assume 1-3 of these will hop into my top 10 once/if I get a chance to play them.

[Michael J. Moss]

Dear Michigan list makers;

As a New Yorker, I am intruding into your discussion. Nevertheless, in my opinion, when putting these lists together, there should be mandatory point reductions for courses where the golfer is reliant upon a golf cart to play it. If it can't be walked, it doesn't belong on any list of top courses.

Arcadia?

[George Freeman]

Dear Michigan list makers;

As a New Yorker, I am intruding into your discussion. Nevertheless, in my opinion, when putting these lists together, there should be mandatory point reductions for courses where the golfer is reliant upon a golf cart to play it. If it can't be walked, it doesn't belong on any list of top courses.

Arcadia?

Arcadia can be walked.  It wouldn't be the easiest walk ever, but it's definitely not "unwalkable".

[Jim Thompson]

Sean,

Ten Best Clubs or Ten Best Courses?  I think you know what I mean.

Cheers!

JT

You ever gonna get back and pay me a visit?

[Chuck Brown]

Arcadia is walkable.  Good question, too.  For comparison's sake, I will say, from experience, that Arcadia is as walkable (or more) as Hanse & Shackleford's Rustic Canyon.  Neither are among the easiest; but both have been designed, within their limits, to be as walkable as possible.  Rustic Canyon isn't the easiest walk, either, given the environmental areas they had to work around.

[Brent Carlson]

Chuck,

I agree that Arcadia is walkable, and that Rustic is extremely walkable.  Played RC in 2 hours 18 minutes walking.

Football starts next week.  Go Blue!!

Arcadia is walkable.  Good question, too.  For comparison's sake, I will say, from experience, that Arcadia is as walkable (or more) as Hanse & Shackleford's Rustic Canyon.  Neither are among the easiest; but both have been designed, within their limits, to be as walkable as possible.  Rustic Canyon isn't the easiest walk, either, given the environmental areas they had to work around.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Ten Best Clubs or Ten Best Courses?  I think you know what I mean.

Cheers!

JT

You ever gonna get back and pay me a visit?

Jim

This is more about courses than clubs, but I am not laying down any rules on how folks decide which are the best other than one can't be affiliated with the club in some way to nominate it.  That said, that particular club may still be nominated as a top 10, but it won't count until the nomination is backed up by someone not affiliated with the club.

I am hoping to return to Detroit next spring, visit the rents and play a few games of golf. 

Ciao

[Doug Ralston]

Sean;

Not only am I not a Michigander, but I have never played a private club in Michigan. Having said that, I doubt any state has as many good quality public courses!

While courses oft mentioned here like Arcadia Bluffs and Greywalls must be considered even agaist the great private stock, I think some others get less notice than they deserve. Eagle Eye, for example. While admittedly very 'manufactured', this course provides challenge and great fun.

Please, when considering, do not allow certain ingrained GCA prejudices to color you thoughts. Again, for example: Jerry Matthews. I have played a couple of his that deserve more positive comment than they get here. While I certainly rate Greywalls higher on the UP, Timberstone was a really fun play. And while Tullymore gets all the talk here, I think St Ives was maybe a smarter old classic design, which might still prove a stern test because today's longer players would not find easy havens on a lot of those holes.

Perhaps none of these actually deserve 'Top Ten' status, but they deserve more consideration. I think the discussions of Michigan golf here have often narrowed too much toward certain GCAs. Michigan has a VERY wide array of quality courses, and in many styles. Still, IMHO, the Mecca of public golf.

Doug

[Sean_A]

Sean;

Not only am I not a Michigander, but I have never played a private club in Michigan. Having said that, I doubt any state has as many good quality public courses!

While courses oft mentioned here like Arcadia Bluffs and Greywalls must be considered even agaist the great private stock, I think some others get less notice than they deserve. Eagle Eye, for example. While admittedly very 'manufactured', this course provides challenge and great fun.

Please, when considering, do not allow certain ingrained GCA prejudices to color you thoughts. Again, for example: Jerry Matthews. I have played a couple of his that deserve more positive comment than they get here. While I certainly rate Greywalls higher on the UP, Timberstone was a really fun play. And while Tullymore gets all the talk here, I think St Ives was maybe a smarter old classic design, which might still prove a stern test because today's longer players would not find easy havens on a lot of those holes.

Perhaps none of these actually deserve 'Top Ten' status, but they deserve more consideration. I think the discussions of Michigan golf here have often narrowed too much toward certain GCAs. Michigan has a VERY wide array of quality courses, and in many styles. Still, IMHO, the Mecca of public golf.

Doug

Doug

Assuming we get enough guys to nominate courses my input will be very limited as I am essentially trying to organize, edit and present the info  offered.  I know that Michigan is very deep with public courses, but that shouldn't be surprising as the state has long had one of the highest ratios of courses per population in the country.  It will be difficult to go beyond top 10ish because my rater sample is too small to cover the entire state well.  My main goal in this is to find the odd course which turns my head. If this exercise goes well I was hoping to do a listing of "non top 10ish courses in Michigan", but as I say, it would require nearly full participation from Michiganders past and present to come up with a reasonably comprehensive list of nominations. 

Ciao 

[George Freeman]

bump

want to make sure everyone sees this (and gets a chance to participate if eligible).

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

I've only played the courses in and around the Battle Creek and East Lansing area but I found a real surprise was Battle Creek Country Club, a 1919 Willie Park, Jr. Design.  My family belonged the Riverside Country Club, a more blue-collar layout.  I had my first chanct to play BCCC about two years ago and was pleasently surprised.  From the road, it looked totally flat but there were significant elevation changes that were smartly used and some outstanding green complexes...  A real pleasure.

[Chris_Blakely]

Sean,

I have worked in Michigan for 6 years now and player more golf courses that I can count in Mighigan.  I too would be glad to contribute my to ten list.  I will give it some thought and post later.

Chris

[George Freeman]

I think for fun GCA conversation sake, we should all post our top 10 lists instead of secretly e-mailing them to Sean.  If you're not comfortable or can't post them without it tainting your rankings, no big deal, no one will ever know (unless you're a prominent MI poster! )

Sean, let us know if you disagree.

Cheers,

George

[Sean_A]

I think for fun GCA conversation sake, we should all post our top 10 lists instead of secretly e-mailing them to Sean.  If you're not comfortable or can't post them without it tainting your rankings, no big deal, no one will ever know (unless you're a prominent MI poster! )

Sean, let us know if you disagree.

Cheers,

George

George

My intent of "secret posting" was not to hide things from non Michiganders, but to hide the info from Michiganders.  I am looking for a very "honest" appraisal without a lot of hassle about why or what.  Perhaps this will encourage those in the business to offer opinions.  Plus, I don't want folks to promote a "favourite" course if they know one of their obvious top choices is a shoe in for a top spot.  All that said, I can't stop anybody from posting what they like.

There has been a good and interesting response so far, but I need more nominations.   

Ciao

[Brian Cenci]

Ok...well I gave it my 20 minute best shot to develop a list.  I ordered them #1 thru #50.  I have played most of the "good" courses in Michigan but I listed some of them that may be on others list but that I haven't played.  So, these are my thoughts so I'm interested to hear others opinions.  I've listed the number of rounds I've played on the course because that is sometimes a factor on how much you like a course (either grows on you or doesn't).

MY TOP 50:
#1 – Crystal Downs {300 rounds, worked there for 6 years}
#2 – Kingsley Club {15}
#3 – Arcadia Bluffs {15}
#4 – Greywalls {10}
#5 – Franklin Hills {1}
#6 – Oakland Hills (South) {4}
#7 – Lost Dunes {1}
#8 – Dunes Club {2}
#9 – Point O’Woods {1}
#10 – Forest Dunes {5}
#11 – Tullymore {1}
#12 – Eagle Eye {30}
#13 – Wusckowan Players Club {1}
#14 – Lakewood Shores (Gailes) {10}
#15 – True North {1}
#16 – Indianwood (Old) {1}
#17 – Mines {1}
#18 – Pilgrim's Run {3}
#19 – Angel’s Crossing {3}
#20 – Black Forest at Wilderness Valley {1}
#21 – Radrick Farms {1}
#22 – Bay Harbor (Quarry/Links) {2}
#23 – Belvedere {1}
#24 – Red Hawk {5}
#25 – Shepherd's Hollow {3}
#26 – Orchard Lake CC {1}
#27 – High Pointe {25, no longer open but I’ll include it}
#28 – Boyne (Heather) {2}
#29 – Muskegon CC {1}
#30 – Yarrow Golf and Conference Center {2}
#31 – Barton Hills CC {1}
#32 – CC of Lansing {50, my current home course}
#33 – Elk Ridge {1}
#34 – Blythfield CC {1}
#35 – Battle Creek CC {1}
#36 – TPC of Michigan {1}
#37 – Grande Golf Club {1}
#38 – Black Lake {1}
#39 – Lakewood Shores (Blackshire) {2}
#40 – Hawk’s Eye {1}
#41 – Champion Hills {10}
#42 – Moose Ridge {1}
#43 – Buck’s Run {3}
#44 – Little Traverse Bay {1}
#45 – Thoroughbred {1}
#46 – Walnut Hills CC {175, used to be my home course}
#47 – Heathlands {1} 
#48 – The Orchards {1}
#49 – Wyndgate {2}
#50 – Les Cheneux Club {5}

OTHER “TOP” COURSES THAT I HAVE PLAYED (THAT ARE NOT IN MY TOP 50):
Boyne (Ross Memorial) {1}
Detroit GC (North) {1}
Grand Traverse Resort (Bear) {15}

WHAT I HAVEN’T PLAYED (THAT MAY BE ON THIS LIST):
Birmingham CC
Bloomfield Hills CC
Boyne (Hills)
CC of Detroit --> Probably top 25
Detroit GC (South)
Diamond Springs
Grosse Isle G&CC
Hawkshead
Hidden River
Indianwood (New)
Lockenheath
Meadowbrook
Meadows @ GVSU
Oakland Hills (North) --> Probably Top 50
Otsego Club
Plum Hollow
Port Huron GC
R&S Sharf Golf Course --> Probably Top 50
Shanty Creek (Cedar River)
Sweetgrass
Tam O’Shanter
Timberstone --> Probably Top 25
The Majestic
Thousand Oaks
Treetops (Smith) --> Probably Top 50
Treetops (Fazio) --> Probably Top 50
U of M Course --> Probably Top 50
Warwick Hills CC

[JC Jones]

Now you know why I said Cenci would be the best for this

[Ken Fry]

Now you know why I said Cenci would be the best for this

Wow, I really need to get out of the house more often.....

Ken

[Andy Troeger]

Brian,
To be honest, from what I've played I think that's a prettty good list. My biggest quibble is that Wuskowhan Players Club is too high and should be behind Pilgrim's Run and Angels Crossing. I'd also put Dunes Club behind PoW and Tullymore, but I can see having those all in the same grouping. I don't have Arcadia quite that high, but my top two are the same as yours and I wouldn't move any of those others all that far.

[Brian Cenci]

Brian,
To be honest, from what I've played I think that's a prettty good list. My biggest quibble is that Wuskowhan Players Club is too high and should be behind Pilgrim's Run and Angels Crossing. I'd also put Dunes Club behind PoW and Tullymore, but I can see having those all in the same grouping. I don't have Arcadia quite that high, but my top two are the same as yours and I wouldn't move any of those others all that far.

Andy,
     You're probably right about Wuskowan being too high.  Looking at it now I'd say it should be somewhere in the #17-#20.  Part of the problem with Wuskowan is I don't remember a lot of the course and from the time I played it, it seems hard to give it a good assessment (played it in 45 deg and raining in October of 2007....only ones on the course).  I remember thinking it was well maintained, had a cool "look" to it but wasn't super impressed.  I'm a big fan of Pilgrim's Run and Angel's but I've also played them more times too.  I really need to give it another look is what I'm saying.
     As far as Dunes Club, it's anywhere in that #7 to #10 range.  Really if you group the rankings together in groups of 5 it's hard within those groupings to really compare.  POW I just played a few weeks ago and was very very impressed.  Part of the neat thing with the Dunes Club is the whole experience of the club.
     As Arcadia goes I'm a huge fan.  Love the place and honestly I think it deserves all of its accolades.  I could care less how "manufactured" it is....its awesome, plain and simple.  I had a tough time putting it ahead of Greywalls.

-Cenci

[Andy Troeger]

Brian,
Your assessment of Wuskowhan is pretty close--its in great shape and is in a beautiful setting. It also has wide fairways and something like 23 forced carries, so its not that hard for the better player but really hard for a weaker golfer which I don't consider to be a good combination. Plus the forced carries became repetitive over the course of 18 holes--it seemed like you played a different version of the same par four at least a few times. Its got a lot of good holes, but the sum isn't as good as the parts IMO.

I have no problem with those that like Arcadia. Heck, I'm willing to defend Black Rock 

[Matt Harrison]

I've read and I've read, and cannot resist posting my top 10 any longer.  I am no longer a resident, but still spend a good chunk of time there visiting family and friends.  Top 10 I have played:

1.  Crystal Downs- up there with Cypress Point and Pine Valley favorites in US
2.  Dunes Club- purely a sentimental favorite for me
3.  Point O Woods
4.  Lost Dunes
5.  Indianwood Old
6.  Bay Harbor Quarry/Links
7.  Arcadia Bluffs
8.  Wuskowan
9.  Black Forest
10. Blythefield



My rounds in Michigan, especially the east side of the state, are limited, but that's my top ten.

[Brian Cenci]

I've read and I've read, and cannot resist posting my top 10 any longer.  I am no longer a resident, but still spend a good chunk of time there visiting family and friends.  Top 10 I have played:

1.  Crystal Downs- up there with Cypress Point and Pine Valley favorites in US
2.  Dunes Club- purely a sentimental favorite for me
3.  Point O Woods
4.  Lost Dunes
5.  Indianwood Old
6.  Bay Harbor Quarry/Links
7.  Arcadia Bluffs
8.  Wuskowan
9.  Black Forest
10. Blythefield



My rounds in Michigan, especially the east side of the state, are limited, but that's my top ten.

Really curious why you think Bay Harbor is ahead of Arcadia?  That is something I haven't seen before and I'd be interested in your thoughts on that.

[Ken Fry]

I sent a list to Sean in no particular order, but I'll list in preference:

1.  Crystal Downs
2.  Kingsley Club
3.  Lost Dunes
4.  Pilgrim's Run
5.  The Mines
6.  Arcadia Bluffs
7.  Angel's Crossing
8.  Tullymore
9.  Dunes Club
10.  Point O' Woods


Other course comments:

Oakland Hills South (never played but walked the Ryder Cup)
Harbor Shores (new Nicklaus course in Benton Harbor.  Not completed yet but very impressive)
Hampshire (a local favorite.  The original 18 hosted one of the qualifiers for the Western Amatuer.  Not the best conditioning but a really fun lay-out)

Ken

[Sean_A]

Jeepers Brian.  That is a seriously detailed list.  How in the heck can you keep it all straight? 

Come on Michiganders.  I need some more suckers to step up.  I know yer out there.  If you play golf you can't have much pride left so stop the Clayman pretense of "I don't keep lists".  I know you have lists even if its a vague concept behind your left ear.

Ciao

[Matt Harrison]

Ken- great to see Hampshire on a list!  Anyone who has lived in SW Michigan or NW Indiana and loves golf knows about Hampshire.  It is top ten or anything- no way.  But a pretty darn good golf course and really fun to play.  Thanks for bringing back some great memories.  I coached high school golf for 4 years in that area, and both enjoyed watching some good hs players struggle with some of the holes there, and really enjoyed playing the course myself.

Brian- good question on why Bay Harbor over Arcadia.  It is a "feel" thing for me, so I will probably struggle to articulate this well, but I will give it a shot.  I've only played each course twice.  I think it has something to do with my bias against "links" courses that are not really links.  Somehow, Bay Harbor feels more true to the original land they had to work with, even though I am sure they moved a lot of dirt.  It does not come across to me as a golf course that is trying to be an old-style links course.  Arcadia is a good golf course, for sure, but I just struggle to fully enjoy any flat farmland turned into a "links" course, regardless of how well it is done.  When I have played in Great Britain, I just did not enjoy Kingsbarns or The European Club near as much as TOC, Portrush, Lahinch, Cruden Bay, etc.

The other comment I would make in comparing Bay Harbor to Arcadia is something about the views and the aesthetic experience.  Again, this is difficult to articulate well, but there was something about the Links nine at Bay Harbor and the views that seemed cooler to me.  While you are not quite as close to the water as you are at Arcadia in some spots, there are a few shots at Bay Harbor that make you think you might hit it in the lake on your next shot.  I certainly recognize that you can have a very good argument about the strategic nature of either design, but I have not played either course enough to engage in that argument