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Carl Rogers

Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2009, 07:57:28 PM »
No none has mentioned any of Mike Strantz's work yet.

Tom,

Does this thread relate back to the "Going to the Precipice" thread?  Does 'severe' mean not going over the precipice?

Tom_Doak

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Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2009, 08:08:02 PM »
Carl:

Yes, there is very much of a precipice between "great" greens [Augusta National] and "goofy" greens [exactly the same greens as Augusta National built by a modern architect].  Where that precipice is depends on the golfer, and whether he carries a long putter, among other variables.

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2009, 08:09:40 PM »
Tom--

I have not played Oakland Hills or Hollywood and hopefully I will fix that in short order.  I gave thought to all of the other courses on your list and they are all worthy, they weren't the first that popped into my mind.  I'll go further to say that 2 and 3 at Rolling Rock may be the two best consecutive greens that I've seen.  

You definitely need to see Morfontaine Valliere.  Those greens, particularly 1, 3, 4, 5, and 8 are real classics.  
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 08:12:02 PM by Adam_Messix »

Bill Brightly

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Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2009, 08:16:33 PM »
Saucon Valley's Old Course belongs up there. lots of variety: slopes, tiers, multi-sections and even a Biarritz to the par 4 18th.

In addition, 4 years ago they gassed them and planted 100% bent. Played them right before the Women's Open and they were as good as anything i ever putted on.

Dean Stokes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2009, 08:22:41 PM »
Here's one vote for Sebonack.
Make that two.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 08:53:39 PM by Dean Stokes »
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

Tim Gavrich

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Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2009, 08:25:34 PM »
Yale's greens are probably the most confounding I've ever seen.  Not only do the huge undulations make them tough  their flatter areas contain innumerable little subtle breaks.  I played it yesterday in the CSGA Four-Ball Championship and my partner and I completely misread five or six putts, a couple of which ended up breaking completely the opposite way than we thought they'd break.
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Tom Dunne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2009, 08:34:04 PM »
Do tell, Tim. Was 11 one of them?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2009, 08:46:14 PM »
Fenway and Mountain Ridge should be added to the top 10

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2009, 08:50:18 PM »
Can't count mountain ridge until they re-build the 18th, it is unputtable

Dean Stokes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2009, 08:54:42 PM »
I would also nominate Seminole if purely on a speed and slope basis. Running at an 8 or a 9 they would not be too diffucult but they never do!!!!!
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

jonathan_becker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2009, 09:03:11 PM »
Brookside in Canton.

i too was thinking of of Brookside Dean...

I will throw in a thrice vote for Brookside.  A stern test of putting every time out.

Mike_Cocking

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2009, 09:46:57 PM »
I'll second (or third) Pasatiempo for a vote, but closer to home I'm suprised no one has mentioned Barnbougle Dunes.  Only because they're fescue do they remain so playable.

We've also just made a pretty wild set at RACV's course at Healesville.  Not of the same scale as Barnbougle but wild nevertheless. 

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2009, 09:54:07 PM »
Canton Brookside & Oyster Harbor

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2009, 09:54:49 PM »
National Golf Club of Canada
Redtail Golf Course

Patrick_Mucci

Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2009, 10:13:37 PM »

Can't count mountain ridge until they re-build the 18th, it is unputtable


Bill,

What's the title of this thread ?  ?  ?

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2009, 10:37:57 PM »
Pasatiempo,Lakewood,Broadmoor East,Pinehurst 2,Oakmont

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2009, 10:40:40 PM »
Does this thread relate back to the "Going to the Precipice" thread?  Does 'severe' mean not going over the precipice?

Carl,

Dead on, I think.  Looking at a few of the more popular ones on the list; I'd say that they all do a great job of tip-toeing extremism.  This is what makes them so great, IMO.

#13 at Kingsley goes a little overboard, especially with a back left pin.  But as a collection and in comparison to the greens before and after it I think it fits very well.

#13 at Crystal has a certain element of "precipice crossing" to it, especially on the back right pin.  But 12 and 14 balance it out.  

Pasatiempo--in general--could certainly get out of hand if they kept it faster than they do.  I four putted the 8th green, and nearly four putted on 16 when I landed my ball on the back tier when the pin was middle.  But again, as a collection, fun and challenging.  

I think in this particular debate, it is beneficial to look and see if any singular element of a collection of 18 greens is way off the charts crazy.  Then, if the answer is yes, see what other features that other greens have to offer are. In the case of the 13th at Kingsley; is every green like that?  No.  Is there a good collection of really severe greens and just "normal contoured" greens?  Sort of, yeah.  So is it a severe collection? Yes.  But fun and challenging as well.  

The most extreme contours in all of San Antonio are here on the base at Randolph Oaks.  They keep them at about 7 feet--shaggy bermuda.  But due to the extreme contour they are fun fun fun.  Other than the greens, it's a cow pasture.  But it's proof that slightly extreme and almost over the top greens can make any piece of land exciting.  

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2009, 11:11:10 PM »
Homer post:
#2 looking from the back toward the fairway--severe green on a 533 par 5

Side view of #13  The top half can scream back to front as well.  Actually had some competitors putt from the back fringe off the green in last year's Atlanta Amateur :o  Greens were too fast but to putt off the green was not a good stroke.

Another view looking from the back right of the green to the tee.  If your in the half pipe (long) and are putting to that flag, good luck.

Looking back on the 479 yard 18th.  Hard to see the severity but there is acyually a helping back left back stop designed to help slow up long iron/hybrid approaches.

Doesn't look like much but there is a lot going on in that 4200 square foot green.  Another one you can "de-green" it on.


Obviously I am biased but the severity works and I think the complexes are some of the neatest in Atlanta.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2009, 03:56:53 AM »
I am surprised nobody has mentioned TOC just for the sheer size of the greens.  While the greens are generally not wild or quick, it isn't often that a golfer can several  putts over 100 feet and there is enough movement to make many of these confounding.

Ciao
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Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2009, 04:08:06 AM »
I think Pinehurst #2 is by far the toughest that I have played. Pinehurst #8 was pretty challenging too!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2009, 04:14:50 AM »
I think Pinehurst #2 is by far the toughest that I have played. Pinehurst #8 was pretty challenging too!

Morgan

Is that down to the greens, surrounds or combination of both?  I don't think putting on them is terribly severe - once you are on the green!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2009, 04:30:39 AM »
I am surprised nobody has mentioned TOC just for the sheer size of the greens.  While the greens are generally not wild or quick, it isn't often that a golfer can several  putts over 100 feet and there is enough movement to make many of these confounding.

Ciao
I had been thinking the same thing.  And those greens would be really severe if they ever did run at 12/13.

I'm not surprised that the vast majority of responses have been for US courses (is the Castle course the only other British course mentioned in this thread and Morfontaine the only European?), since only in the US is there an obsession with really quick greens and almost any green is puttable at the right speed.
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Sean_A

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Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2009, 05:18:49 AM »
I am surprised nobody has mentioned TOC just for the sheer size of the greens.  While the greens are generally not wild or quick, it isn't often that a golfer can several  putts over 100 feet and there is enough movement to make many of these confounding.

Ciao
I had been thinking the same thing.  And those greens would be really severe if they ever did run at 12/13.

I'm not surprised that the vast majority of responses have been for US courses (is the Castle course the only other British course mentioned in this thread and Morfontaine the only European?), since only in the US is there an obsession with really quick greens and almost any green is puttable at the right speed.

Mark

Very true.  Some American clubs (and golfers) tend to equate good greens with fast greens while British golfers equate good greens with true roll, firmness and some speed.  Of course, many of these greens were never designed with double digit green speeds in mind so they shouldn't really be that severe at proper speeds.  Mind you, like the wind velocity, I find many Americans over-estimate the speed of greens and rarely hear Brits even mention a stimp #.  I can recall being at Kiawah and thinking they were running at 9ish (a good and sensible speed).  Yet I overheard some golfers saying they were 11.  For all the talk of very fast greens, I don't think I have ever played but a handful of rounds on what I thought were excessively fast greens, but that was when I was hanging around country clubs.  In all of my visits back to the States these past 10 years, not once I have I come across really fast greens. I doubt I played any that were running at 10.  The best I have come across these past dozen years are University of Michigan's with Merion a close second (Yeamans were very good too).  In three visits they were the perfect blend of speed and firmness which accentuated the design of the greens.

Ciao  
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 06:33:05 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff Spittel

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Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2009, 08:49:38 AM »
Among the courses I've played, I would vote for Deepdale and Bayonne.

I'm normally a decent putter, but the size, slope and speed of the greens at Bayonne really drove me nuts. I hit the ball great all day and didn't break 90.
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Keith Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: top 10 most severe sets of greens
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2009, 09:26:48 AM »
I would second Bayonne and add Bear Creek (Denver) and Montclair Golf Club - Montclair has 36 greens with fabulous movement, a few of which are truly 'severe'

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