top 10 most severe sets of greens

[PThomas]

Tom D mentioned in the WBYC that he thought they were one of the top 10..

..so i thought it might be fun to try and guess what the other 9 might be...Tom might not be able to confirm, but i thought it would still be an interesting thread

surely Crystal Downs, Augusta, Oakland Hills, Oakmont....

Kinglsey Club?

others? 

[Scott Szabo]

Surely Ballyneal must fit in there somewhere....

[Dean DiBerardino]

Brookside in Canton.

[cary lichtenstein]

Much of the answer depends on how the greens are maintained and what speed they are normally kept at.

For US Open qualifying, our course, Admirals Cove cut and rolled and they had a speed of 14.

That was severe

[Phil McDade]

Prairie Dunes?

Winged Foot?

[PThomas]

Brookside in Canton.

i too was thinking of of Brookside Dean...

[PCCraig]

Lost Dunes
Ross Course at French Lick

[David Stamm]

Severe denotes negative, IMHO. My nominations are the toughest, most challenging I've seen to date.


Pasatiempo- Huckaby and I have talked countless times about this. If they run above 10, they are unbelievably challenging.

Stone Eagle- See above, although I haven't seen them run much faster than 10. So much going on!

Engineers- 1 and 17 are amazing!

Rustic Canyon- Such a great mix. Amongst my favorite sets. when they run fast, it really makes better players scrtach their heads after walking off 18. They can't figure out how they shot such a high score when the course seemed to play so easy from tee to green.

[Richard Hetzel]

After playing Grosse Ile on Monday, those were absolutely SEVERE (and I don't mean that in a negative sense because I LIKED THEM!).

Severe because there were MANY instances when being off the green in front was a BETTER than actually hitting the green in regulation. Pics coming soon!

PS:  I am proud to say I avoided any 3+ putts though!

[David Kelly]

I reject the word "severe" as it is applied to any of the courses mentioned. 

Here is the definition of the word from the Random House Unabridged.
1. harsh; unnecessarily extreme: severe criticism; severe laws. 
2. serious or stern in manner or appearance: a severe face. 
3. grave; critical: a severe illness. 
4. rigidly restrained in style, taste, manner, etc.; simple, plain, or austere.
5. causing discomfort or distress by extreme character or conditions, as weather, cold, or heat; unpleasantly violent, as rain or wind, or a blow or shock.
6. difficult to endure, perform, fulfill, etc.: a severe test of his powers. 
7. rigidly exact, accurate, or methodical: severe standards.

Maybe #6 comes close to applying but the word severe was hardly at the top of my mind when I saw the greens at Crystal Downs, Prairie Dunes, Winged Foot, Lost Dunes, Kingsley CLub and Ballyneal.

I was thinking more along the lines of fun, interesting, challenging, hard, perplexing, wild, unique, etc...

[PThomas]

to both Davids:

I am guessing that Tom D meant "severe" not as in harsh or unnecessarily extreme, but as in fun, challenging, complex, etc...

[Kalen Braley]

Of the ones I've played, gotta go with:

Pasatiempo
Indian Canyon
Lakota Canyon

A distant 4th,
RCCC

[Cristian]

to both Davids:

I am guessing that Tom D meant "severe" not as in harsh or unnecessarily extreme, but as in fun, challenging, complex, etc...

Pasatiempo, RSG's

[Ronald Montesano]

Fox Chapel

Any Travis course at high speed (Cherry Hill and Lookout Point in Ontario come to mind)

[Jeff Evagues]

Here's one vote for Sebonack.

[John Mayhugh]

Engineers- 1 and 17 are amazing!

My first thought as well.

[Pete_Pittock]

If Oregon contributes it would be Tetherow.
I would agree on Crystal Downs, Oakmont, Ballyneal, Pasatiempo

[Adam_Messix]

The 10 most difficult and interesting sets of greens are.....

Ballyneal
Lost Dunes
Pine Valley
Oakmont
Augusta National
Pasatiempo
Crystal Downs
Prairie Dunes
Morfontaine Valliere
Engineers

This combined groups makes for some interesting hole locations....

[Tom_Doak]

Adam:

That's a very good list -- nothing on there I would disagree with, though I have not seen the short course at Morfontaine.
Other candidates:

Oakland Hills (HAS to be on in the top ten somewhere)
Somerset Hills
White Bear Yacht Club
Rolling Rock Club, PA
Deepdale
Hollywood, NJ

And of course, National Golf Links, while maybe not being in the top ten for a 1-18 sum total, certainly has a handful of THE most severe greens of any course in the world.

It's very apparent that there are not too many modern courses nominated for this list, other than my own.  Is there really NO ONE else building difficult greens anymore?

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

I would put Jim Engs greens up there too....

[Voytek Wilczak]

 Is there really NO ONE else building difficult greens anymore?

Cupp/Kite???

 

[Anthony Gray]

  The Castle Course has to win this hands down.

  Anthony

[Sean Leary]

Tom D,

I think that there are a lot of moderns with very difficult grens by numerous architects. But top 10 was the question. Your course at Stonewall is one (New).

A number of Fazios seem to as well, including the one I play at.

[Sean_A]

Adam:

That's a very good list -- nothing on there I would disagree with, though I have not seen the short course at Morfontaine.
Other candidates:

Oakland Hills (HAS to be on in the top ten somewhere)
Somerset Hills
White Bear Yacht Club
Rolling Rock Club, PA
Deepdale
Hollywood, NJ

And of course, National Golf Links, while maybe not being in the top ten for a 1-18 sum total, certainly has a handful of THE most severe greens of any course in the world.

It's very apparent that there are not too many modern courses nominated for this list, other than my own.  Is there really NO ONE else building difficult greens anymore?

Tom

I agree about Oakland Hills.  Running at double digits they are comfortably the most daring and troublesome greens I have seen.  

Somebody mentioned Grosse Ile.  I have always thought of them as baby Oakland Hills greens.  They are certainly in that style and there are a handful which are very tough, but not to the degree of OH. This set still comfortably one of the best I have seen.

I thought Rolling Green's greens were very severe - though one dimensional in terms of keeping the ball below the hole.  

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Kalen:

I have seen three Jim Engh courses, but I wouldn't put the greens contouring on any of them in the same list as any of these.

I guess a lot of the question hinges on how you define "severe," as David Kelly pointed out earlier.  I have no interest in nominating a list of severe courses that are stupid to play, so I was sticking with Adam's criteria:  "difficult and interesting" to me means greens that are very challenging to read and to putt and for short game play, but at a scale conducive to good golf.  Six-foot tiers and the like are not part of that discussion.

Sean L: 

The New Course at Stonewall would be my third choice of my own courses ... not quite as severe to putt as Lost Dunes, and not quite as wild as Ballyneal, though maybe harder to putt on.

Sean A:

Bruce Hepner told me the same thing about Grosse Ile.  Alas, I have never seen it.