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Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Greens at RCCC
« on: August 26, 2009, 10:54:23 AM »
I had a converstaion last night with a gentleman who has just joined the Montana delight and his only negative comment was the severity of the grrens.
He stated there was perhaps a move amongst the better players to perhaps have them softened...having not yet made the pilgrimage....any comments?

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2009, 10:58:22 AM »
Say it ain't so Joe?

This should be good.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2009, 11:01:04 AM »
I had a converstaion last night with a gentleman who has just joined the Montana delight and his only negative comment was the severity of the grrens.
He stated there was perhaps a move amongst the better players to perhaps have them softened...having not yet made the pilgrimage....any comments?

Michael,

That would be a pity if true, as I thought they were fantastic.  While some had some decent severeness to them like #9 and #15...i found these to be the ones I liked the best as I love undulating and challenging greens.  I understand this is personal preference, but I wouldn't change a thing about them if it were up to me.

P.S.  I thought the trickiest green on the course was the practice green right next to the 1st tee....I was struggling to two putt from 10-15 feet!!  ;D

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2009, 11:04:34 AM »
For those of us that have never been to Montana... What does RCCC stand for?

Thanks,
Paul
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2009, 11:06:05 AM »
For those of us that have never been to Montana... What does RCCC stand for?

Thanks,
Paul


Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2009, 11:06:48 AM »
Rock Creek Cattle Company

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2009, 03:20:06 PM »
The RCCC greens were no way as wild as Ballyneal's greens. I loved both sets of greens and think the "wildness" of each would make the course a lot more fun for the members over the years. I hope they do not change them.
Mr Hurricane

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2009, 03:22:07 PM »
I had a converstaion last night with a gentleman who has just joined the Montana delight and his only negative comment was the severity of the grrens.
He stated there was perhaps a move amongst the better players to perhaps have them softened...having not yet made the pilgrimage....any comments?

Let me guess. A really good player?

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2009, 03:54:31 PM »
Sean,
Fairly good, but his claim was really based on some opinions from players better than him.

I explained that when I played Ballyneal part of the fun was that you could have multiple three putts.
That is what Ballyneal is about...having fun.
Now I take it very seriously when I am playing, but when I play Ballyneal, I know that some three putts are going to happen...and will not let it spoil my day.

Are those greens what I want to see in a top notch tournament...well no,  not really, but is that what Ballyneal or Rock Creek is all about?

I would have thought at those type of venues it is more for the fun....but I cannot spaek for everyone.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2009, 04:18:49 PM »
MWP -

I would HOPE that fun is what draws people to RCCC and BN and not to try and have major tournaments. Both those courses were a ton of fun and the variety of pin placements made them even funner for multiple plays. So yes I agree I would not want to play in a medal play event everytime I was there, but I certainly wouldn't turn down the invitation either.
Mr Hurricane

Jim Nugent

Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2009, 05:13:18 PM »
I wonder what the course records are at Ballyneal and RCCC?  Do they have slopes and course ratings? 

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2009, 05:18:03 PM »
Sean,
Fairly good, but his claim was really based on some opinions from players better than him.

I explained that when I played Ballyneal part of the fun was that you could have multiple three putts.
That is what Ballyneal is about...having fun.
Now I take it very seriously when I am playing, but when I play Ballyneal, I know that some three putts are going to happen...and will not let it spoil my day.

Are those greens what I want to see in a top notch tournament...well no,  not really, but is that what Ballyneal or Rock Creek is all about?

I would have thought at those type of venues it is more for the fun....but I cannot spaek for everyone.

Michael,

I have played many a round at Ballyneal with guys who didn't enjoy all the three putts, so those greens are definitely not for everybody.  Frustrating, yes, which leads to no fun for alot of guys.
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2009, 05:24:40 PM »
Presumably the people who joined Rock Creek
He stated there was perhaps a move amongst the better players to perhaps have them softened...having not yet made the pilgrimage....any comments?

"Pearls before swine," is the only comment I can think of at the moment.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

TEPaul

Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2009, 07:03:21 PM »
Michael Wharton Palmer:


All I can say is I firmly believe that the putting green area of golf courses are the true "democratic" area of golf courses and golf course architecture because they really require no strength, simply imagination and intelligence for starters. Even a clever grandmother has the ability for that alone but she sure can't hit a golf ball 250 plus yards.

For that reason alone I think putting greens should be complex because they can be very much the democratic leveler! For that reason alone it is very ironic (or is it?) that the good player contingent is the one to push for their softening.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2009, 11:29:28 AM »
As usual Shivas...you make me smile, and trust me I will send it to him!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2009, 03:18:45 PM »
Michael:

Our client at Rock Creek, Mr. Foley, has been a non-resident member of Oakmont for many years.  I would love for him to call me and tell me there is any green at Rock Creek that is too severe by that standard.  There's not.  But apparently there are some players there who are not yet resigned to the notion that missing some of the greens in the wrong place will not allow them to save par.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2009, 03:24:24 PM »
It's funny how a low handicapper (and I am one :) ) can accept a bogey when we miss a shot and hit in the rough, but not when we he hit it in the wrong place on the green.

Sounds to me that all RCCC needs a little education and a No Whining sign in the pro shop...

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2009, 03:36:39 PM »
I wish I were a member there, or better yet Shivas...


It is 100% natural that low handicappers would start a "let's change the greens" movement, but also quite possible to shame them back in line.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2009, 03:38:34 PM »
I agree with you guys, and as I have said a great deal of the early opinions change the more yu play a golf course and learn pin positions etc...
how boring it would be to play on flat or merely canted greens all the time...no joy of having to think out shots around the greens, playing away from holes to get the result you need...this is golf to me...it is NOT just about hitting good shots into a green and assuming you have a good birdie chance.


When I read what Tom has to say, it makes me smile....I want to see these players go up against him and trying to explain their viewpoint...wish I could be there ;D

I am with Shivas......good does not mean that the game ends when you have hit your approach shot....it merely starts

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2009, 05:09:10 PM »
This thread got me thinking about what the "restorers" will do to TD's courses when he is gone...

Will they look reduce the size and contours of his greens?

henrye

Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2009, 06:14:43 PM »
I think building wildly contoured greens is a luxury that's better suited for a certain type of course due to pace of play issues.  How does it work at places like Oakmont?  Is a 4-4.5 hour round the norm for fourball?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 05:26:33 PM by HenryE »

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2009, 01:57:02 AM »
If you obsess about contoured greens it probably means that you are obsessing about par and what score you can brag about in the clubhouse.

I enjoy shotting a low round as much as anyone else, but when you go and play a certain type/quality of course, you should just enjoy the course for all it has to offer and, hopefully, have someone to play a match against.

The american obsession with scoring - especially at the pro and low handicap level - has been killing the game because these types of players demand long, targety courses with bloody boring greens.

What kid wants to play on a course like that - make play around the greens fun and more people will enjoy the game (in the long run, when they are educated that golf is not all about what you shoot).

We already went through one long phase of ruining excellent courses, hopefully another does not come along in 15-20 years where the great courses of the late 90 and early 00s are stripped of interest.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2009, 08:51:47 AM »
Michael Wharton Palmer:


All I can say is I firmly believe that the putting green area of golf courses are the true "democratic" area of golf courses and golf course architecture because they really require no strength, simply imagination and intelligence for starters. Even a clever grandmother has the ability for that alone but she sure can't hit a golf ball 250 plus yards.

For that reason alone I think putting greens should be complex because they can be very much the democratic leveler! For that reason alone it is very ironic (or is it?) that the good player contingent is the one to push for their softening.

It's not ironic just obvious. The wussy good player doesn't want his precious score hurt. However, speaking as good player I love these types of greens. It makes the course and game more interesting day to day. And frankly it separates the good player from the really good player because the really good player thinks his way around the course and avoids the spots that lead to three putts or impossible up and downs. And the really good player who is honest admist to himself that three putt isn't the fault of the architect but his poor execution or poor thinking on the second shot.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 08:57:45 AM by Steve Kline »

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2009, 09:24:57 AM »
You would think a good, competitive player might think his chances of winning were enhanced by making green complexes more challenging.

Like Dave Schmidt says, a certain pin placement on a contoured green can dictate strategy all the way back to the tee.  A example of approach strategy can be found at Ballyneal #13, a long par 4 with a large, severely undulating green where it is virtually impossible to get up and down, if the pin is in the right half of the green, and the player is short and left.  If I hit a good drive, and have say a 7-iron or shorter approach, I'll usually try to fly the bunker and go for the right side of the green.  But if I have a longer approach shot, I know I must get it past the pin, and to the back of the green, so I have a chance of getting down in two shots to make par.

This is what makes Ballyneal so fun to play.  I make strategic adjustments on a daily basis, based on wind and different pin positions.  I see a pin and know what I must do.  This certainty comes from experience playing the course.

Somebody I know relayed a story to me last winter.  He invited a well known senior player to Rock Creek, who spent a day playing the course.  This person then immediately shared the two things he would like to see changed, neither of which was the contouring of the greens.  (mound in front of #14 green, peculiar dropoff on left side of #18 fairway in driving zone)  A couple weeks later I sent my acquaintance an e-mail, more or less asking why a person/player would move immediately to what is wrong with a course after the first time around.  I tried to be as polite as possible, but I suppose I was essentially saying why can't a great player, which this man in question is, just play the existing hazards and enjoy the golf course?  I did not receive a response.

I have a chip on my shoulder for good players that cry about conditioning or difficult circumstances on the course.  Michael, I see your story and have trouble thinking anything but how stupid and shortsighted the complaint is. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at RCCC
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2009, 09:39:54 AM »
I rarely play heavily contoured greens and ain't bothered much either way.  I reckon there is plenty of interest in greens without relying on severe contours, but I always reckon that learning contour just comes down to experience, just as clever, subtle greens do.  So long as the speeds are kept reasonable, and by reasonable I mean 9ish, it is awfully hard to make ott greens - the archie has to have some sort of mental collapse of reason which to be frank, is rare.  The problem comes with excessive speed which in truth, just eliminates interest, or with greens that just don't make sense with their surrounds.  The overall aim of most very good courses has to be finding a way to challenge most golfers in pleasant surrounds, put a smile on their faces, do it in 3.5 hours(4 ball) and for $100 max.  That is my bottom-line philosophy and I am sticking with it. How does RCCC fare in these respects?

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