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Scott Macpherson

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Doak's book on Mackenzie
« on: August 28, 2009, 07:27:26 AM »
Anyone know where I can get a copy? (I'm in the UK)

thanks,

scott
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Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2009, 07:56:38 AM »
I believe it's out of print but I'll deliver a loan copy to your door Sundy 9am! Cheers
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2009, 09:25:43 AM »
Scott:

It's out of print and VERY hard to find.  I don't know how many of them were actually printed.

I only have one copy myself, or I'd be glad to sell you a spare.
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Ross Tuddenham

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2009, 09:33:28 AM »
There is one for sale on amazon but it is £300.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/158536018X/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&qid=1251466244&sr=1-2&condition=used

Also, i don't know about this book but his confidentail guide is in the national library of scotland collection.
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Bill_McBride

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2009, 09:37:03 AM »
Apparently available on Amazon.com, for a stiff price!

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_0_15?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=alister+mackenzie&sprefix=Alister+Mackenz

300+ quid.  Yikes!  I bought a copy and then shipped it to a UK friend as a 'thank you' gift.  Should have bought two copies!
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Andrew Mitchell

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2009, 09:53:00 AM »
I've searched high and low, including contacting the publishers, all to no avail.  The only ones I've found all carried a very significiant premium.

I've read the same loan copy that Scott is going to get, but that only served to make me want my own copy once I'd handed it back!
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Ken Moum

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2009, 10:08:34 AM »
abebooks.com has some sellers listing them for less than $300, but that's still amazing.

I guess I should have invested in Doak when I had the chance.

The big surprise is that according to the above source, I can now get a Confidential Guide for about the same price as the Maclenzie book.

Too bad I'm unemployed.

K
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Adam Russell

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2009, 10:20:30 AM »
I found one copy accidentally in the UGA library, knowing how much the book goes for. First time in my life I thought about outright stealing  ;D, but instead I sent an e-mail informing the library of the rareness and asking it be moved to the special collection of landscape architecture. So I would suggest searching out libraries if you just want to read it and not pay the money, which is all I wanted to do...
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Lou_Duran

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2009, 12:32:07 PM »
A great strategy Mr. Doak seems to have employed.  Print a very limited edition, befriend 1500+ gca aficionados, and see the price escalate.  I wonder if a few boxes might be "misplaced" in his warehouse.   ;)  Like with the "Confidential Guide", I have a copy of the subject, autographed.  Let the bidding begin!

BTW, might this strategy (greatly limit supply to drive the per unit price) work with golf course design?  Might an architect in great demand get an exponentially larger fee by doing a course or two every five years?
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Richard Choi

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2009, 12:35:42 PM »
Tom, you may be the most expensive author (average price per book) in the world! :)
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Mike Hendren

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2009, 12:47:19 PM »
My net worth just went up by $330.  Time to prepare a new financial statement.

Bogey
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2009, 12:49:26 PM »
Lou:

That's the Tiger Woods fee strategy.

I don't think it would work for a regular architect who wasn't a famous Tour pro, until maybe the very end of one's career.  You could never get to be in that position doing one course every 3-4 years ... no matter how good it was, you would not achieve the name recognition of others producing 5 times as much work of arguably similar quality.
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Scott Macpherson

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2009, 04:22:30 AM »
Tom,

Who owns the rights to the book? Why don't you encourage that person/s to print another 3000 copies or something? As you know, reprints aren't very difficult to organise – compared to doing the research.

btw, you know the gentleman who butchered Harry Colt in the book 'Creating Classics' is embarking on his next project and it is a book on Dr A Mackenzie. I am hoping he can increase the accuracy of his writing for this upcoming tome.... but I am fearing the worst. And it would be a travesty if his book did fail to capture the essence of Maczenzie's work but became widely accepted just because they printed enough copies to  satisfy demand.

scott
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Mike_Clayton

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2009, 04:31:46 AM »
Scott,

Given that the definitive book on MacKenzie has been done another can only pale by comparison.
It is a worry when the author does not know of the lost Sitwell Park green - or that the book has already been done.
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Scott Macpherson

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2009, 09:21:28 AM »
Mike,

You are correct. But if readers can't buy that 'definitive' book, any subsequent publications, almost regardless of their quality, get hoovered up because of a thirst for that topic. It is in nobody's interest (except antiquarian book dealers) that good books are later followed by paler versions (let alone inaccurate ones).

Is this another discussion that we should have in a pub one day? Probably, but I fear we might agree with each other before the first pint is downed.....

scott

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Tim Bert

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2009, 10:58:08 AM »
I think there's definitely a mini-market for the re-print.  I know I'd buy one.  The problem is that isn't going to happen because the market has driven the price up so significantly that there'd be a lot of angry buyers at the $300 price if suddenly the book was available at the cover rate.

How many buyers need to be lined up in order to swing a re-print despite the angst of the current owners?

I'll buy 3 at retail price if that helps. 

I'd really just be happy reading it.  I need to check out the library list as some have done with the Confidential Guide to see if any in the region have a copy for loan.
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Kalen Braley

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2009, 11:03:48 AM »
Quote from: Tim Bert on August 29, 2009, 10:58:08 AM
I think there's definitely a mini-market for the re-print.  I know I'd buy one.  The problem is that isn't going to happen because the market has driven the price up so significantly that there'd be a lot of angry buyers at the $300 price if suddenly the book was available at the cover rate.

How many buyers need to be lined up in order to swing a re-print despite the angst of the current owners?

I'll buy 3 at retail price if that helps. 

I'd really just be happy reading it.  I need to check out the library list as some have done with the Confidential Guide to see if any in the region have a copy for loan.

Tim,

I have a copy of the original that my wife bought for me at a decent price and I wouldn't care if they did a re-print.  I own the book because I think its an excellent book, it was very well worth what I paid for it, and I have no intentions of ever selling it.

But sure, if we take it to extremes and the book was worth say $10k, then maybe I may have angst over a re-print!   ;)
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2009, 11:36:39 AM »
Tim:

Usually publishers do reprints in quantities of 2000 or so for a color book.  That might not be necessary anymore, publishing and printing have sure changed a lot in the last 10-20 years.

However, I would not even know where to start trying to get a reprint done.  The original publisher, Sleeping Bear, folded years ago.  I think the title/copyright is now owned by Wiley & Sons, but I'm not sure of that, they don't have any remainders and never really did any business on this book.  And I had two co-authors, one of whom has passed away, so it's not just up to me.  Any suggestions on where to start?

[Thank God my contract for The Confidential Guide allowed me to get the copyright back!  Now I've just got to figure out how to keep Google from scanning it and letting everyone have it for free.]
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Tim Bert

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2009, 11:43:54 AM »
Tom

The only suggestion I have is one you probably won't find useful:

Ship me your sole copy of the book. That will give you more incentive to figure out how to navigate the industry and get the re-print done.

Otherwise I guess I will just be resigned to listening to Mr. Colton's "I'm on a Doak" continuously and hope that the intellectual content is roughly equivalent to that found in the book. 
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ed_getka

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2009, 04:07:21 PM »
Tim,
    I have both Doak books being discussed, I will be happy to send them to you to read, but there will have to be a sizeable insurance policy involved. :) Seriously though if you are interested just cover the shipping and I'll send them to you.
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David Stamm

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2009, 04:56:48 PM »
I mean no disrepect to Tom, but for those that haven't seen it, it's not worth killing yourself to obtain one. It's a good book for someone who has no knowledge or a novice's knowledge of AM, but there isn't anything that will be earth shattering for alot of members on this site. I like it, but it's not worth bending over backwards to see. If you haven't read Golf Architecture or Spirit of St Andrews, Scott, I recommend reading them if you want to understand his thoughts on course design.
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RSLivingston_III

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2009, 05:34:54 PM »
I think it is a very good book. I have AM's books plus the CP book lined up with this book in my library.
Nice pics and a great history of AM's work.
I particularly like the large fold-out color reproduction of AM's survey of St. Andrews in the back.
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Patrick Kiser

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2009, 06:35:08 PM »
For what it's worth ... some time back I provided this high level feedback elsewhere.  But to be honest you'll understand more MacKenzie on this site than anywhere.



Granted this book is smaller than either Bahto's or Klein's, but that's where the difference ends. This volume is just as strong as either of those two retrospectives.

I would say this book is very well balanced between MacKenzie's personal history, the background to what went into MacKenzie's work (i.e. what was involved), and aspects unique to MacKenzie course design. There are also select hole reviews, diagrams, green and course plans to supplement all this. The photos are excellent as well and complement the text well I feel. You really get to "see" what MacKenzie's about (especially the bunkers I feel).

This book resembles more Klein's "Discovering Donald Ross" in that it is not a "Confidential Guide" of sorts to MacKenzie's courses, eventhough Tom Doak is a heavy contributor to this book. It's also not as drawn out into the minutia details as Klein's book is. Doak's effort here gets more to the point of things without splitting hairs as much.

I enjoyed the passages covering Cypress Point, but for that you'd be better off getting a copy of Shakelford's Cypress Point. There's also a pretty good review of the Australian courses (especially Royal Melbourne). Of course, there's more (Augusta among others) but those two stood out for me. But these are all high level reviews and point out certain strengths only. So don't expect to know so much about "how" to play them. Different ballgame for that I'm afraid and you won't find the answers here.

Last but not least, there's a nice plan fold out of ... St.Andrews of course, where MacKenzie learned much about his craft and did much as well. You get to review the plan and appreciate MacKenzie even more. I'm glad this was placed at the end of this book.

Can't go wrong with this volume. Best I've seen out there about MacKenzie. Get this and MacKenzie's "The Spirit of St.Andrews" and "Golf Architecture" and you'll know your MacKenzie. After that, hit Pasatiempo or another MacKenzie gem and get to appreciate all your homework.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 06:58:31 PM by Patrick Kiser »
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Mike Hendren

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2009, 06:53:37 PM »
Tim Bert, 

You can drop by my house this very evening if you'd like to borrower my copy.  Just call first.

Mike
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Tim Bert

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Re: Doak's book on Mackenzie
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2009, 07:04:31 PM »
Ed - thanks for the offer but shipping books that are out of print make me nervous. I'd feel responsible if something happened to your copy in transit.

Mike - thank you for the kind offer as well. I unexpectedly bought my first Mac this evening so I will be otherwise occupied in the near-term.  I would really like to take you up on that offer some time this winter.

We should get out for a round some time. It has been 6 weeks since I played. You will need to give me a stroke a hole.   
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