Keiser to invest in Askernish?

[JC Jones]

George - especially the picture of the sheep, eh...

[Adrian_Stiff]

I doubt I will ever make it to Askernish just because of the logistics.  However, I can see its appeal and would think some folks would visit.  Whether or not this means "it works", I can't say.  To some degree, the project has worked already and if new sensible investment comes in who knows?  I do think the club is missing a trick with donations.  They should be offering some sort of fairly cheap (50-100 quid) one time only payment for international membership.  Perhaps that time as passed now that the club has lost the spotlight a bit.  I know I would have sent them a cheque, but at the time they were asking far too much and I wasn't going to make a straight out donation because its a business which hopes to do well.  I hope things work out for Askernish because lord knows we need courses (no matter where they are) which are charming and interesting enough to compete with the big boys who have taken to gouging their customers for al they are worth.

Ciao  

Yes and International Patron membership at £100 one off payment, and then the right to pay say £25 per round would have got my money...and probably a lot of GCA'ers on here. I think we all look at this project and really want it to work, its just so hard to combine playing this course linked in to a normal Scottish golf trip.

[Chris DeNigris]

the big boys who have taken to gouging their customers for al they are worth.

Ciao   

Sean- Just how do these big boys do their gouging? Do they somehow cajole poor, innocent golfers into their spidery web and milk their wallets? Maybe pull a little bait and switch to collect an extra hundred pounds? I'm pretty sure Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart, Pebble Beach and Pinehurst 2 charge what the market will bear. No more, no less. The market wiill dictate the price.

Gouging is charging $10K for a $2K generator to desperate people in Florida after a hurricane....

Not sure what you do but I'm sure you enjoy being compensated to the maximum the market will pay and don't consider it gouging.

[Tom_Doak]

Chris:

The problem with that is that whenever somebody does something really good, it winds up being expensive!

[George Freeman]

George - especially the picture of the sheep, eh...

JC,

That would actually be a cow...do you have the animal channel at home?

[Mark Pearce]

Adrian,

What is "not going to work"?  I'm sure Askernish will never make an enormous amount of money for anyone.  I haven't seen anything that suggests anyone thinks it will.  It's obvious you haven't even bothered to look at the club's website, since your suggestion of a £100 international membership and then £25 a round would look very poor value in comparison to the already offerred £125 pa for non-resident membership.  It's a shame that you only ever seem able to look at golf as a way of generating money.  I know it is for you (and others on this site) but it seems to me that the aim of Askernish is to do OK, not to make a fortune.

Would I make a trip to Uist just to play Askernish?  No, I wouldn't.  Will some people?  Yes, I imagine they will.  Does the presence anbd pricing of Askernish make it more likely that I (and my family, not my golf buddies) will visit Uist in the next couple of years?  Very definitely.

People already visit Uist.  It's a very beautiful and peaceful place.  The last thing it wants as an island is some form of golf resort and I sincerely hope (and believe) that that is not what Keiser might have in mind.  A decent hotel by what is a really interesting course, though, would be a valuable addition.

Mark

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,

What is "not going to work"?  I'm sure Askernish will never make an enormous amount of money for anyone.  I haven't seen anything that suggests anyone thinks it will.  It's obvious you haven't even bothered to look at the club's website, since your suggestion of a £100 international membership and then £25 a round would look very poor value in comparison to the already offerred £125 pa for non-resident membership.  It's a shame that you only ever seem able to look at golf as a way of generating money.  I know it is for you (and others on this site) but it seems to me that the aim of Askernish is to do OK, not to make a fortune.

Would I make a trip to Uist just to play Askernish?  No, I wouldn't.  Will some people?  Yes, I imagine they will.  Does the presence anbd pricing of Askernish make it more likely that I (and my family, not my golf buddies) will visit Uist in the next couple of years?  Very definitely.

People already visit Uist.  It's a very beautiful and peaceful place.  The last thing it wants as an island is some form of golf resort and I sincerely hope (and believe) that that is not what Keiser might have in mind.  A decent hotel by what is a really interesting course, though, would be a valuable addition.

Mark

Mark and you clearly do not read my posts.

[Brian_Ewen]

George - especially the picture of the sheep, eh...

JC,

That would actually be a cow...do you have the animal channel at home?

    

[Mark Pearce]

Adrian,

What is "not going to work"?  I'm sure Askernish will never make an enormous amount of money for anyone.  I haven't seen anything that suggests anyone thinks it will.  It's obvious you haven't even bothered to look at the club's website, since your suggestion of a £100 international membership and then £25 a round would look very poor value in comparison to the already offerred £125 pa for non-resident membership.  It's a shame that you only ever seem able to look at golf as a way of generating money.  I know it is for you (and others on this site) but it seems to me that the aim of Askernish is to do OK, not to make a fortune.

Would I make a trip to Uist just to play Askernish?  No, I wouldn't.  Will some people?  Yes, I imagine they will.  Does the presence anbd pricing of Askernish make it more likely that I (and my family, not my golf buddies) will visit Uist in the next couple of years?  Very definitely.

People already visit Uist.  It's a very beautiful and peaceful place.  The last thing it wants as an island is some form of golf resort and I sincerely hope (and believe) that that is not what Keiser might have in mind.  A decent hotel by what is a really interesting course, though, would be a valuable addition.

Mark

Mark and you clearly do not read my posts.

Ok, point me to what I haven't read and that I've missed or ignored in my post. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Firstly I have looked at the website, there is a membership at £125 per year. Sean's idea which I agreed with, was a one off £100, which is more like a donation, my idea was then to get a reduced green fee per visit.

It is not that I always look at golf as generating money for the purpose of profit but money is an important ingredient in making a golf course work, a very key component as are the seasons, the rain, the nutrients. The course needs to be maintained and that involves buying equipment, insuring the stuff and the wage bill and the rest of the stuff that goes with modern life. This is a great site but so often people go off half cocked and get the figures wildly wrong because they dont understand the stuff behind the scenes and intellegent people can get coccooned with the green grass over-riding buisness sense.

Initially (a few years back) there was talk that Askernish would be the saviour of the island and bring untold monies because of the old Tom Morris course. I did say in my posts on this thread that to some degree it has worked as long as it survives and has enough helpers to keep the course mown. This has been the prime reason why Askernish has not worked in the past, it has stopped then restarted several times, seemingly as the keener members dissapear from the island.


My point was that this course has a terrible location that will inhibit its performance and in many respects we have classic case of land fit for puropse but with a remote location.

[Mark Pearce]

Firstly I have looked at the website, there is a membership at £125 per year. Sean's idea which I agreed with, was a one off £100, which is more like a donation, my idea was then to get a reduced green fee per visit.

It is not that I always look at golf as generating money for the purpose of profit but money is an important ingredient in making a golf course work, a very key component as are the seasons, the rain, the nutrients. The course needs to be maintained and that involves buying equipment, insuring the stuff and the wage bill and the rest of the stuff that goes with modern life. This is a great site but so often people go off half cocked and get the figures wildly wrong because they dont understand the stuff behind the scenes and intellegent people can get coccooned with the green grass over-riding buisness sense.

Initially (a few years back) there was talk that Askernish would be the saviour of the island and bring untold monies because of the old Tom Morris course. I did say in my posts on this thread that to some degree it has worked as long as it survives and has enough helpers to keep the course mown. This has been the prime reason why Askernish has not worked in the past, it has stopped then restarted several times, seemingly as the keener members dissapear from the island.


My point was that this course has a terrible location that will inhibit its performance and in many respects we have classic case of land fit for puropse but with a remote location.

A one off £100, then £25 a round, still doesn't sound good value with a £125 membership to me.  I can't see anyone going there and playing less than 3 or 4 times.  It's not like £125 is a lot of money.  Many Scottish courses have Overseas memberships at around £300 and I can't imagine many of those members visit every year, so I can't see £125 putting people off.

When considering the economics of Askernish, are you also considering that the cost of upkeep will be significantly less than a normal course, because of the condition it is being maintained in?  That, presumably, will result in less labour, less equipment and cheaper insurance.

And you haven't defined what you mean by "making it work" but it still seems that your idea of "working" involves making a significant profit.

You said I hadn't read what you wrote.  I note you have failed to point to anything you have previously said that I missed.  Is there anything?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Adrian

In general, I tend to actually agree with many of your points, however on Askernish we have to be careful.

I believe Ralph Thompson and his fellow Members of Askernish have from the start approached the whole project with care and due attention. They have decline money from a very wealthy golfer to assist in the re-opening of the course and decided that there was just, let me call it strings to the suggested funding. So bravely, they undertook the whole project on a shoestring budget.

They have faced all problems face on, worked through the problems and moved on stronger than before. Certainly investment is required in South Uist, nothing new there, but on their past record they have protected the ideas, the course and land, so I feel that they will continue to do so who ever - if anyone – comes bearing bucket loads of cash.

Any development must be sustainable, it must incorporate the island natural beauty and activities blended into an appealing package that I believe needs to attract Families and Golfers alike. Not in the Trump format but what is natural and commonplace for the West coast of Scotland and Isles.

In 2007, I was in the Western Isles and based at Oban, staying in small country house hotels with excellent service, good food and fine wine. We were surprised to meet so many people who decided to explore the Outer Hebrides all said they had a great time from playing golf, fishing and exploring returning totally relaxed, unstressed, and looking forward to returning trip.

Will they make the money that Mainland developers seek? Do they feel the need to rape, destroy the landscape, character or the environment in pursuit of the mighty profit? Who knows but on current form, I would say no. They will I expect want a return on the investment but that may be more on the creation of fairly secure jobs (many seasonal), however maintaining the way of life and environment is I believe paramount.

What will be, will be, nevertheless give the Askernish Team some respect in what they have achieved to-date without much outside capital. They have certainly ‘Done it their way’ and I hope and pray they continue with the same self-belief and courage that has them where they are today. A small out of the way course that is known worldwide and IS attracting visitors.

As for a remote location, yes that is true. Only remote if based upon a short stay of say a day or two,  but if spending 4-7 days plus, then it is not really that remote and nearly as easy to get to by car as Dornoch, Brora if travelling from Glasgow/Edinburgh with a little ferry trip thrown in to ease the driving.

It’s not all about money although it helps oil all the moving parts, it’s about the indomitable human spirit IMHO

Melvyn         

[Sean_A]

Firstly I have looked at the website, there is a membership at £125 per year. Sean's idea which I agreed with, was a one off £100, which is more like a donation, my idea was then to get a reduced green fee per visit.

It is not that I always look at golf as generating money for the purpose of profit but money is an important ingredient in making a golf course work, a very key component as are the seasons, the rain, the nutrients. The course needs to be maintained and that involves buying equipment, insuring the stuff and the wage bill and the rest of the stuff that goes with modern life. This is a great site but so often people go off half cocked and get the figures wildly wrong because they dont understand the stuff behind the scenes and intellegent people can get coccooned with the green grass over-riding buisness sense.

Initially (a few years back) there was talk that Askernish would be the saviour of the island and bring untold monies because of the old Tom Morris course. I did say in my posts on this thread that to some degree it has worked as long as it survives and has enough helpers to keep the course mown. This has been the prime reason why Askernish has not worked in the past, it has stopped then restarted several times, seemingly as the keener members dissapear from the island.


My point was that this course has a terrible location that will inhibit its performance and in many respects we have classic case of land fit for puropse but with a remote location.

A one off £100, then £25 a round, still doesn't sound good value with a £125 membership to me.  I can't see anyone going there and playing less than 3 or 4 times.  It's not like £125 is a lot of money.  Many Scottish courses have Overseas memberships at around £300 and I can't imagine many of those members visit every year, so I can't see £125 putting people off.

When considering the economics of Askernish, are you also considering that the cost of upkeep will be significantly less than a normal course, because of the condition it is being maintained in?  That, presumably, will result in less labour, less equipment and cheaper insurance.

And you haven't defined what you mean by "making it work" but it still seems that your idea of "working" involves making a significant profit.

You said I hadn't read what you wrote.  I note you have failed to point to anything you have previously said that I missed.  Is there anything?

Mark

Considering how much I would visit Askernish, £125 a year puts me off joining.  Its not like I am going to stumble upon Askernish on any golfing tour.  Sure, I can't say how many people would go for a one off membership fee of £100, but I don't see what the club has to lose.  

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

You could always just join for a year, couldn't you, if you wanted to visit.

In any event, knowing a little about your views on value in golf, I suspect you're not the sort of person who would pay £300 a year to be a member of, say, Crail, and visit once every two or three years.  However, there are plenty of American members at Crail so these people do exist.  I don't see why the same people might not be attracted by £125 pa at Askernish.

Mark

[Sean_A]

Sean,

You could always just join for a year, couldn't you, if you wanted to visit.

In any event, knowing a little about your views on value in golf, I suspect you're not the sort of person who would pay £300 a year to be a member of, say, Crail, and visit once every two or three years.  However, there are plenty of American members at Crail so these people do exist.  I don't see why the same people might not be attracted by £125 pa at Askernish.

Mark

Mark

Crail is close to many other good courses - making it a well placed club for touring.  Askernish is close to nothing, hence the reason for the donation-like international membership which some folks may take up just to support the club. I joined the Tillie society not because I have any love for his work, but because I value what the Society does and it was a one off payment.  If they wanted money every year I wouldn't have joined.

Ciao

Ciao   

[Adrian_Stiff]

Mark - Sean has virtually answered this, I would not pay £125 per year, but I would pay a one off £100 to be say a Patron. I do like the idea of the 'lost Morris' and great respect for all that has been done by the team there. I probably would never get to play it so, but an email newsletter once a year as a Patron would be great and enough to make the Patron feel part of it and recommend and talk about it to others...ie Promote it. and if I ever did get there they a bit off the green fee would be good.

I think there are not that many people that will continue to pay for memberships they do not use. They may initially subscribe but they will fall by the wayside as times go on.

I am not assuming Askernish will make a significant profit at all, but if it is too attract golfers a reasonable standard will be required to make the hike, that will involve costs although significantly less than some courses. You have assumed this profit aspect, the club must generate money though. Almost everything you said in that first paragraph was factually incorrect.

[Mark Pearce]

Adrian,

I'm struggling.  You'd pay £100 and never visit, or visit once or twice and pay £25 a round but you wouldn't pay £125 to be a member just for the year of your visit?

I'm also lost as to which first paragraph of which post.  Which post and which facts?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,

I'm struggling.  You'd pay £100 and never visit, or visit once or twice and pay £25 a round but you wouldn't pay £125 to be a member just for the year of your visit?

I'm also lost as to which first paragraph of which post.  Which post and which facts?

Exactly!!!!!!! I would probably only want to play Askernish once (perhaps twice). If I played 40 rounds in Scotland I would want to play 40 different ones. I think that is fairly normal. My £100 is like a donation to a charity.

The first paragraph of the your post when you said I clearly have never been to their website; It is actually in my favourite places!

[Mark Pearce]

This paragraph?

What is "not going to work"?  I'm sure Askernish will never make an enormous amount of money for anyone.  I haven't seen anything that suggests anyone thinks it will.  It's obvious you haven't even bothered to look at the club's website, since your suggestion of a £100 international membership and then £25 a round would look very poor value in comparison to the already offerred £125 pa for non-resident membership.  It's a shame that you only ever seem able to look at golf as a way of generating money.  I know it is for you (and others on this site) but it seems to me that the aim of Askernish is to do OK, not to make a fortune.

I'm struggling to make sense of your comment that "Almost everything you said in that first paragraph was factually incorrect."  The prices are all correct.  There are no other facts (or alleged facts) in there to be factually incorrect.

I still don't get why, if you were to visit and play, say, two rounds, you'd rather pay £100 and 2x£25 than join for the year and pay £125.  Your comment about the £100 being a charitable donation doesn't make sense, the money all goes to the same place, after all.

[Sean_A]

This paragraph?

What is "not going to work"?  I'm sure Askernish will never make an enormous amount of money for anyone.  I haven't seen anything that suggests anyone thinks it will.  It's obvious you haven't even bothered to look at the club's website, since your suggestion of a £100 international membership and then £25 a round would look very poor value in comparison to the already offerred £125 pa for non-resident membership.  It's a shame that you only ever seem able to look at golf as a way of generating money.  I know it is for you (and others on this site) but it seems to me that the aim of Askernish is to do OK, not to make a fortune.

I'm struggling to make sense of your comment that "Almost everything you said in that first paragraph was factually incorrect."  The prices are all correct.  There are no other facts (or alleged facts) in there to be factually incorrect.

I still don't get why, if you were to visit and play, say, two rounds, you'd rather pay £100 and 2x£25 than join for the year and pay £125.  Your comment about the £100 being a charitable donation doesn't make sense, the money all goes to the same place, after all.

Mark

The difference is the club needs cash now.  When I may or may decide to visit could be too late. 

Ciao

[Melvyn Morrow]

Some interesting history re Askernish

With regards to Askernish, there is a historical link to the Braid Hill original course and also with the Collieston course now closed just south of Cruden Bay. 

The connection is Lady Cathcart of the Cluny Estate. She was responsible for much of the Braid Hills land being offered from the Cluny Estate to the Council for the purpose of a golf course in Edinburgh. A few years later in 1891, she was also responsible for the Askernish course. By the mid 1890’s she had acquired the Earl of Erroll lands around Cruden Bay and in 1900 in celebration of the new Harbour she had built at Collieston Lady Cathcart had the Collieston golf course built, alas this never re-open after WW2.

Each of the said courses had Old Tom as the recommended designer. Hall Blyth recommended Old Tom for Braid Hills and he was commissioned with Braid Hills project with his number 2 being McEwen. However due to previous commitments he pulled out (as I believe he was in Northern Ireland at the time) thus making McEwen the designer with his No.2 being Bob Fergusson.
Old Tom undertook Askernish 1891, Cruden Bay 1894 & Collieston 1900.

The point I suppose is that Askernish is not a remote course but linked through the Cluny Estate to three other courses. That is the real history of our island golf and why Askernish is important.

Melvyn

[James Boon]

Askernish and the Outer Hebrides certainly are out on a limb, but that wont stop everyone from going?

I've got a trip planned there for the beginning of October and the golf at Askernish will only be one day, of 8 or 9 days spent seeing what looks like a beautiful island, stunning scenery and the ever present awesome Scottish wildlife, not to mention some interesting ancient history etc etc. My wife and I had our honeymoon on the Isle of Mull so its an area we love, though I'm sure most people can see how great it looks without managing to ever get there...

Perhaps if Keiser is to invest, or anyone else for that matter, it wont necessarily be to develop a destination resort with a handful of courses and a hotel, but more for the love of the game? You know, the sort of thing that only a seriously rich person could do?

Perhaps if I can pop a decent photo tour up on here afterwards, I can get you all beating a path to play there? 

Cheers,

James

[Adrian_Stiff]

This paragraph?

What is "not going to work"?  I'm sure Askernish will never make an enormous amount of money for anyone.  I haven't seen anything that suggests anyone thinks it will.  It's obvious you haven't even bothered to look at the club's website, since your suggestion of a £100 international membership and then £25 a round would look very poor value in comparison to the already offerred £125 pa for non-resident membership.  It's a shame that you only ever seem able to look at golf as a way of generating money.  I know it is for you (and others on this site) but it seems to me that the aim of Askernish is to do OK, not to make a fortune.

I'm struggling to make sense of your comment that "Almost everything you said in that first paragraph was factually incorrect."  The prices are all correct.  There are no other facts (or alleged facts) in there to be factually incorrect.

I still don't get why, if you were to visit and play, say, two rounds, you'd rather pay £100 and 2x£25 than join for the year and pay £125.  Your comment about the £100 being a charitable donation doesn't make sense, the money all goes to the same place, after all.

You said I had never been to their website, you were wrong. You said i only look at generating money, I dont look purely at generating money. The 'not working' was initially was about getting people to spend £500 on flights and 9 hour airport waits, if you looked at the posts after I did clarify the aspect that as long as the courses is still being mown it works. You did not read the full posts or you did and did not understand them.
Now just try and consider this as two seperate issues:
1. I like the Askernish project and would be a Patron member if there was such a scheme for £100.... I am not likely to go there because of its location, but I love what has been done and like many of us would do I would like to treat it as a charity... £100 is my limit and thats as a one off.
2. I would only want to play this course once or twice, so I am better off to pay a green fee rather than join for the year (£125)

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I do appreciate pictures like the above. I would think on of a lovely blond would tie the experience together better rather than an oh so lonely cow. How does one get there from say Houston?

[Adrian_Stiff]

I do appreciate pictures like the above. I would think on of a lovely blond would tie the experience together better rather than an oh so lonely cow. How does one get there from say Houston?

Houston ..... mmmm you got a problem
I do agree pics are great.