CAVENDISH GC: A Dr Mac Delight

[Jon Wiggett]

Ryan,

yes, I think we are of a similar opinion. My point was that if a club chose to run the greenkeeping with just two staff this would be possible if the club wanted to and the conditions allowed. A good quality course could be maintained though maybe not world class but then very few are even with many more GKs.

As to club culture. I have found that many clubs through the 90's and the early 2000's were in the position of having many people on a long waiting list with cash burning a hole in their pocket. This combined with the professionalization of club management led to many clubs hiking the standard membership fees knowing they could replace any dropouts. Now many clubs are in the position of charging close to £1K yearly subs as apposed to £400 ish of the past. AT £400 many members would still pay even if only playing 10 rounds or so a year where as For a £1K they won't. Also at £1K I expect excellent playing conditions all year round which most clubs can not offer.

You are correct about the me, me, me generation though.

'Eating grass. Luxury. We had to scrape the grass down with our fingernails till they bled. Youth of today

Jon

Jon

[Tony_Muldoon]

On the day before this years BUDA a few of us gathered here.

I'm short of time but I just wanted to put on record that it was "Probably the best £20 I've ever spent."

[Pete Lavallee]

The wife and  I played there on Sept. 11 and it was great value for money! The greens had been aerated two week prior and were completely acceptable; the members were indicating they were scary fast before the aeration and I don't have any reason to doubt that. The rest of the course was in great shape, I can see how things might get a little soggy in the winter time.
I'll certainly echo many of the previous comments, a great routing on a hilly sight but it was still a delightful walk; both the wife and I walk and carry and she remarked how it was an easy journey with no hill climbing. The 10, 11 and 14 are worth the price of admission alone! The 18th could be one of the best finishing holes on the planet.
Buxton was a very pleasant surprise, I wasn't expecting a 19th century Spa Town built out of granite, the buildings in the town were quite impressive. We got a great rate at the Palace Hotel by using booking.com the day before. The meal at the Brasserie was one of the best on our trip, highly recommended.

[Sean_A]

Pete

Its interesting that you cite 14 for praise.  Never did a hole look so dull from the tee with its complexity altering drastically once 150 yards up the fairway. 

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

I happened on this short video about Cavendish on Youtube. It includes some nice old photos etc. Thought it might be of interest to those tuning herein.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DHQkueHw2WA
Atb

[James Boon]

Thanks, interesting to see a course like Cavendish on film. I've seen some of the old black and white photos before, but I like the very last one which I believe is of the 14th green. Dont see bunkers like that behind the green too often these days...


Cheers,


James

[Sean_A]

That 14th green looks to be much wilder than what exists today.  First off, there appears to be a fairway level front section of the green.

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

The small two tier green (nearly all of the greens on the course are smallish) is perched into the base of a ridge with bunkers protecting the flanks.  The ridge somewhat disguises the fact that Dr Mac raised this green from a completely flat fairway.  Dr Mac had two bunkers in that ridge which in typical Dr Mac style was over the top and reduced the value of the ridge as the back drop.  I am not sure who removed the bunkers, but it was a wise decision. 

This is an old photo of how the bunkering was originally. I disagree with Sean on the back bunkers.

Hole #14 by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr

A little bit of magic from Tommy Nac...


14 Tommy by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr

There is some traction within the club to restore such original features as finances permit.

[Mark Pearce]

The bigger shame, Duncan, is that your historic photo shows a much larger area, including all of the false front and an area at the bottom of the slope, cut as green.  The player on the right appears to be putting across what is now fairway!  The loss of green area on some of these old courses is a great shame.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I quite agree Mark.


Such adulteration is almost certainly the result of greens chairmen in byegone years suffering repeatedly from poorly hit approach shots rolling all the way back down to the fairway. Such "unfairness" must of course be eradicated.


Similarly the "unfairness" of an overhit approach shot being unduly punished probably condemned the back bunkers to death.


I despise such thinking. If you can see a bunker or false front to a green yet still fall foul of it how can that be "unfair"?


It's just an inexpertly executed shot.


This is a par 5 green. It SHOULD be bloody tough to hold from 200 yards. There is always a safer, easier way to play the hole.

[Thomas Dai]

Great photo comparison Duncan and some wonderful bit of work by Tommy. Well done.


I usually play at a couple of UK MacKenzie's, both of which when built had extensive rear bunkering, and have myself been undertaking quite a bit of 'the-n-now' photo comparison work.
Photos taken just prior to WW2 clearly show the rear bunkering but photos not long after the war don't show them, nor as many fairway bunkers.
My suspicion is that manpower and money for maintenance just wasn't available after WW2 and in the usual 'needs must' style course features that weren't visited as often were sacrificed in order that the limited resources available could be focused elsewhere on the course. I suspect the same happened in relation to the mowing of the false green fronts.


atb

[Sean_A]

The small two tier green (nearly all of the greens on the course are smallish) is perched into the base of a ridge with bunkers protecting the flanks.  The ridge somewhat disguises the fact that Dr Mac raised this green from a completely flat fairway.  Dr Mac had two bunkers in that ridge which in typical Dr Mac style was over the top and reduced the value of the ridge as the back drop.  I am not sure who removed the bunkers, but it was a wise decision. 

This is an old photo of how the bunkering was originally. I disagree with Sean on the back bunkers.


14th Hole 1925 by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr

A little bit of magic from Tommy Nac...


14 Tommy by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr

There is some traction within the club to restore such original features as finances permit.

Duncan

Ignoring issues about money priorities and the lack of fairway bunkers which Dr Mac envisioned that could better serve a thin budget (not to mention the dreadful bunkering on 10)...the back bunkers weren't just aesthetic in terms of tying the railroad embankment into the green.  When playing the hole, that green is raised quite a bit, so much so that one must guess where the rear of the green is.  Those back bunkers were a distance aid.  Its a philosophical issue imo.  Spend the money to provide not in play pleasing rear bunker distance aid which links the green and embarkment or not.  I generally don't like the concept.  The other issue is the style of the  bunkers.  Dr Mac style bunkers as in the photo (which look to be a maintenance nightmare) are nothing like what is currently in place.  I am not in the least convinced grass faced pots would look good to the rear of the green.  And to alter the style for one hole is opening a huge can of worms.

BTW..is it my eyes or does that green look far more tilted left than is currently the case?

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

BTW..is it my eyes or does that green look far more tilted left than is currently the case?

Good spot.
As an aside, from looking at the roofline of the farmhouse on the hill and the lines of the walls etc it seems as if one of the photos (maybe both) isn't taken or published from the exact horizontal, ie it's tilted somewhat. This is quite a common issue when doing then-and-now comparisons. Modern lenses vrs older age ones also have an effect even assuming that any comparison photos are taken from the exact same location.
atb

[Marty Bonnar]

I've rotated and squished the image a bit vertically. Think it looks a bit better proportioned.

Cheers,
F.
Fellow on the right certainly seems to be putting from a very low teir!

[John Mayhugh]

The ridge is 6-7 feet higher than the back of the green.


I think the hole looks better without the sand. Sand filled bunkers back there would look like something Dye did at French Lick.


IMG_1662

[Sean_A]

I've rotated and squished the image a bit vertically. Think it looks a bit better proportioned.

Cheers,
F.
Fellow on the right certainly seems to be putting from a very low teir!

FBD

Thanks.  From the angle of the old photo I must admit with that lower green tier the set piece looks good.  There is a lovely flow from fairway to the house on the hill. 

Man...I love this course!

Ciao

[Sean_A]

Before playing Hallamshire the Winter Tour dropped in on Cavendish after a four year hiatus..most impressive as ever.  On the way to the 1st tee I could see across to the 7th...a view that was previously blocked by trees.  The 16th can also be seen from the 1-4 area of the course as trees ave been removed there as well.  Sadly, nothing has been done to reveal the full splendour of the 18th from the tee, but maybe one day. On the other hand, the 9th is growing on me!  It is also notable and most important in terms of playability, the 11th has been cleared a bit by the river...making the risky play up the left something that can be rewarded with a better angle of approach.  Anyway, I strongly urge one and all to make the trip to Cavendish.

See the significantly updated tour.
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41162.0.html

Previous Stops:

Hallamshire
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66568.0.html

Cleeve Cloud
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.0.html

Saunton East
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51415.0.html

Saunton West
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66490.msg1587657.html#msg1587657

Aberdovey
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43564.0.html

Westward Ho!
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66480.0.html

Planned Stops

Barton on Sea
Isle of Purbeck

Ciao

[Will Lozier]

I've rotated and squished the image a bit vertically. Think it looks a bit better proportioned.

Cheers,
F.
Fellow on the right certainly seems to be putting from a very low teir!

I thought the exact same thing! Could this approach have been part of the original green?!

[John Mayhugh]

Thanks for the update. A little bit of cleaning up can really make a difference.

[Duncan Cheslett]

It was a pleasure for Dan and me to accompany you at Cavendish Sean, and I'm delighted with the photos you took. Low autumn sun and golden trees certainly bring out the course a treat.


Your comments on the recent tree clearing have been well received at the club and hopefully will spur further work in a similar vein. We have some spectacular views across the course but many others are still shrouded in superfluous tree growth.


We also have some wonderful Scots Pines making up the bulk of Horseshoe Plantation in the middle of the course. Unfortunately over the years thousands of extraneous silver birch trees have been allowed to take root and now obscure the fine specimen trees.  I have plans to go on a chainsaw training course in January and get my licence! 

[Sean_A]

It was a pleasure for Dan and me to accompany you at Cavendish Sean, and I'm delighted with the photos you took. Low autumn sun and golden trees certainly bring out the course a treat.

Your comments on the recent tree clearing have been well received at the club and hopefully will spur further work in a similar vein. We have some spectacular views across the course but many others are still shrouded in superfluous tree growth.

We also have some wonderful Scots Pines making up the bulk of Horseshoe Plantation in the middle of the course. Unfortunately over the years thousands of extraneous silver birch trees have been allowed to take root and now obscure the fine specimen trees.  I have plans to go on a chainsaw training course in January and get my licence! 

Duncan

Who is/was behind the current tree removal?

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

Duncan


Who is/was behind the current tree removal?


Ciao

Greens chairman Mike Higgins is an ex tour pro and has been at Cavendish for well over 40 years. He has a vision to restore the course to how he remembers it as a junior in the 70s before any trees were planted. Architect Jonathan Gaunt is also a member and is a supporter of tree removal for aesthetic and agronomic reasons.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Some old photos of Cavendish from the late 1920s...

Hole #4 by duncan cheslett, on Flickr




Hole #5 by duncan cheslett, on Flickr

Hole #6 (2) by duncan cheslett, on Flickr

Hole #6 by duncan cheslett, on Flickr

Hole #7 (2) by duncan cheslett, on Flickr

Hole #7 (3) by duncan cheslett, on Flickr

Hole #7 by duncan cheslett, on Flickr
Hole #8 by duncan cheslett, on Flickr

Hole #9 by duncan cheslett, on Flickr


Hole #10 (2) by duncan cheslett, on Flickr
Hole #11 by duncan cheslett, on Flickr

Hole #14 by duncan cheslett, on Flickr

Hole #15 by duncan cheslett, on Flickr

Hole #17 by duncan cheslett, on Flickr
Hole #18 (2) by duncan cheslett, on Flickr

Hole #18 (4) by duncan cheslett, on Flickr
Hole #18 (3) by duncan cheslett, on Flickr


Hole #18 by duncan cheslett, on Flickr

[Tommy Williamsen]

Except for the addition of a few trees the course does not seem to appear much different now. The course seems to have been fairly well preserved. Granted I only played it once about ten years ago.

[Sean_A]

Duncan

Thanks.  I am shocked by how much bigger some of the greens appear to be!  Plus, the greenside bunkering is very different today, but we knew that.

One hole looks very different, the 10th. Was that green pushed back?

Ciao