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Ben Stephens

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Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2009, 11:52:25 AM »
Scott,

Golf World GB+ I top 100 historically has been in the November edition every bi-annual year ending with even number.
So it is likely to be Nov 2010 and the WW course will be open before this - so it will be interesting what the judges opinion of the redesign will be.

Cheers

Ben

It will get an initial boost because it's new, it's a change and therefore it has an increased profile as all the pros comment positively on it.

Then it will fall away in the 10 years following as people realise that all its heathland characteristics have disappeared and it's lost what old world charm it once had...
Ally - I think most of these Surrey courses are great but to me Wentworth was never quite the star although because it staged two events per year was rather put on perhaps a false elevation to start with. Don't get me wrong Wentworth is/was no minger, but where were the really great holes maybe 1, 8, 13 perhaps 15. 17 & 18 I cant really see as great holes but they have history and the past drama. I think perhaps there wasn't so much to keep afterall and I am definety more open minded to see what EE comes up with. I think 18 will be a big hit with its new water. I think if Wentworth can retain the good things it had and improve on the less interesting areas it could shine rather brighty.

Perhaps you are right Adrian... I am flippantly damning the design before seeing it... I agree that it wasn't the star and to be honest, it had already lost many of its heathland characteristics...

Ditto - we should wait for the finished article before putting any further opinions on what EE comes up with - but in some ways I agree with a comment made earlier that it is a Colt layout touched up by Els not a pure Colt course anymore.

Paul Nash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2009, 02:34:16 PM »
I think some big changes at Wentworth are only likely to improve it. As adrian said, it was never blessed with real star quality in the first place, has been changed about quite a lot over the years and there are several pretty average holes. Personally, I know I will probably in the minority, but from the few pictures I have seen, it looks like 18 will be improved, although the first half of the hole will still be bland if they don't do anything there. Also, the twice I played it, the pond area in front 8 was pretty scruffy and not attractive, so hopefully it will at least look more visually appealing. What they need to do, in spades, is bring back my favourite lady heather!!

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2009, 04:59:55 PM »
http://www.wentworthclub.com/golf/3186/

Work on the course has progressed very well since our last update, although we’ve had a bit of a mixed bag in terms of weather so that’s obviously not been ideal. In particular we had some torrential rain overnight on Tuesday 15 September, which delayed some of the construction work. The team is back on track again now, though, and we’re keen to finalise everything before autumn sets in.

We also had Ernie Els’ Senior Design Associate Greg Letsche visit the Club this week and he continues to be very impressed with the quality of the workmanship. It was nice to hear his positive comments, some of which I can relay to you here. “I’m really excited about how the course looks,” Greg said. “It’s as pure as possible in terms of strategy and we’ve had nothing but positive feedback so far. It’s going to be absolutely spectacular when it’s finished.”

As usual I’m happy to be able to update you on the story behind some of the images taken on site in the past few days. Let’s start at the finish, if you follow my meaning! You can see in this photo the meandering brook taking shape in front of the 18th green. One recent development is that our structural engineers have advised us that we need to strengthen the retaining sleeper walls because of the sheer weight of soil bearing down on it.

In order to achieve that we have put in place gabion baskets, typically used to hold back steep embankments on the side of motorways. These act as an additional support structure and bear the main weight of the finished green. When completed you won’t be able to see them and they have no effect on how the green functions, but they have a significant benefit in that they ensure there is no subsidence in years to come. The same process will be used on the 8th green. It is our intention to have the 18th green finished in the next three weeks. Then of course we have to complete the work on the brook.

The 16th green to be completed in this renovation project fittingly happens to be the 16th green, where in this image you can see Gordon Johnston of Ernie Els Design preparing the final shaping of the putting surface. This is Ernie’s ‘home green’ as it were, and we had long discussions about how to change the whole strategy for the second shot in here. The result is a quite dramatic change to the green and surrounding green complex. We’ve reworked the bunkers at the front of the green and placed a new bunker at the back. We’ve also enhanced the contouring on the putting surface to take into account the fact that the approach shot is really just a flick with a wedge; it is entirely appropriate that the green should have a significant challenge about it. Everyone is really pleased with the outcome.

Work on the main putting green was somewhat delayed by the heavy rainfall I referred to at the start of this update, but as you can see from this image the rootzone is being put in place and by the time you read this update the process will have been completed. It is expected that this green will be turfed by the middle of the first week of October. This new putting green will to the naked eye look very flat, which is a requirement of the PGA European Tour in order to accommodate the large number of players during championship weeks. But it will in fact have a two per cent fall in the direction of the 1st green of the West; a subtle gradient, which will allow surface water to run off the green.

So, moving on to greens that have been completed in the last fortnight, here we are on the 11th green. When you next play this green you will notice an increased level of contouring to the putting surface. As with the 16th green, we felt this was appropriate in view of the typically short-iron approach shot. This extra contouring allows us to challenge players to find the correct portion of the green in order to yield a straightforward birdie putt; again, we felt that was only fitting given that this is just a short par-4.

For those of you who have been to the Club in the last 10 days, a quick glance up the 1st fairway would have revealed a view of the completed green, which looks absolutely magnificent.

As part of the review of the 1st green we have taken the opportunity to widen the back tee on the 2nd hole. Obviously on a short par-3 such as this there are lots of divots taken, so by doubling the width of the teeing area we can spread the wear and tear over a larger area. It’s one of those additional little jobs you can do during renovation work and it makes a real difference to the playability of the golf course.

Moving up to the 2nd green, you can see that the trademark twin front bunkers have been slightly re-shaped and also deepened – a rather scary prospect in itself.

But watch out also for a new pot bunker located at the back right portion of the green beyond the oak tree. It’ll be no picnic in there, either!

The wet weather we had in the middle of September was hardly a blessing, but it was mercifully brief and the recent dry and warm weather has allowed us to continue well with the top-dressing of the greens, as seen here on the 1st hole. It is important to complete this task in dry conditions, so as to ensure we get the smoothest putting surfaces possible before we move into the winter months. Things are looking extremely positive on that front.





Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2009, 08:13:56 AM »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/iaincarter/2009/10/wentworths_dramatic_overhaul_e.html
 
Wentworth's dramatic overhaul exceeds all expectation
Iain Carter | 10:10 UK time, Saturday, 24 October 2009


Britain's most famous inland golf course is going to be barely recognisable when it re-opens next spring, ahead of the European Tour's flagship BMW PGA Championship.

All that remains unchanged about Wentworth's West Course, a spring and autumn fixture on BBC television screens for decades, is its hole routing, location and clubhouse.

At the end of last year's PGA the course checked in for some cosmetic work. All 18 greens would be re-laid with colonial bentgrass to alleviate the unevenness of spring-time poa bent that was forcing big-name stars like Padraig Harrington to stay away from the event.

So, the plan was for a facelift to attract back the stars to the PGA. But once the golf- design doctors started work they soon realised the need and opportunity for major surgery.

This coming week marks the first World Match Play Championship to be staged away from Wentworth, so it seemed appropriate to pay a visit to the venue that until last year had staged this popular event since 1964.

The extent of the development being carried out is truly staggering and it is clear that much of it is dental work because the new Wentworth West will have teeth - strong, sharp, nasty ones at that.

What was going to be a £1.5m project to make the greens acceptable to the likes of Harrington and Ian Poulter is now a £3m exercise in revamping the entire course, with the most dramatic change coming at the famous par-five last hole.

A new brook has been created to provide a truly "in your face" water hazard immediately in front of the green. It is approximately eight yards wide with vertical wooden walls that separate it from an elevated putting surface.

So a perfect drive to the traditional fairway corner location will require a second shot to carry 220 yards to a small target that's also guarded by deep bunkers front and back of the green.

The bunkers that guard the left corner of the fairway have also been remodelled to make it a real temptation to make an attempt to take on the carry to the green from the sand.

It is a recipe for memorable golfing drama to surely excite the watching galleries. What the players will make of it remains to be seen, though, because it is a penal design that provides a punishment perhaps greater than the crime of a slight mishit would deserve.

But the pros have to remember they're in the entertainment industry - not that they will need reminding by the time they reach the 18th, anyway, because the entire ethos of the changes is to make golf on the West Course exciting and unforgettable.

"What will people remember from this hole?" has been the repeated challenge put to the Ernie Els design team by the Wentworth owner Richard Caring, the fashion and restaurant tycoon.

It was when the course closed on 31 May last year after Paul Casey had won the PGA and Wentworth had staged its Club Championship that it was quickly realised there was a massive chance to make dramatic change.

"We realised it would be a travesty not to take this once in a lifetime opportunity of having the course closed for a year to create history," said Wentworth chief executive Julian Small.

Losing a year's worth of golf on the West Course was already going to be a £3m hit on the Wentworth coffers. They were in for another £1.5m to relay the greens and for another £1.5m they decided to go for a comprehensive re-build.

The total cost of the project therefore is £6m and it is progressing on time, and so far has been aided by ideal weather conditions in the summer and autumn.

Nevertheless, it remains a tight race against time to have the course ready for the European Tour's flagship event next spring (incidentally it will be staged a week earlier than usual 20-23 May).

Among the most noticeable changes will be the way the bunkering has been dramatically deepened all around the course. For example, on the 1st the trap guarding the front left of the green is fully 15 feet below the putting surface.

The hazards retain the rolled faces that were the trademark of the original designer Harry Colt, but in their severity they are approaching the Woodhall Spa scale in places.

Sensibly, the long 17th remains free of bunkers (as has always been the case) but the green is smaller and has been shifted slightly with a dramatic run-off to the right.

The 12th has been reclassified as a par-four rather than being the easy birdie/eagle chance when the scorecard suggested it should be completed in five strokes. It has a new raised green and bunkers will guard the right side of the fairway. It will present a formidable challenge.

On the 15th a re-routed ditch will meander down the right side of the fairway and the bunker that prevented wayward drives careering into real trouble down the right will be removed.

Water that guards the 8th has been extended and a new tee is being built to provide tournament directors with the option of making it a short, driveable par-four.

Indeed, every hole has been changed in some way or other. There is still a vast amount of work to be done and only once it has been played by the top pros will we be able to gauge how successful the project has been and its popularity in the locker room.

But already there appears potential for great drama and the days of 20 under par winning the PGA now seem well and truly gone. I'd go further and say that the European Tour has the makings of its own much needed Stadium Course with the changes that are being made.

The big names are being urged to return to its flagship event next year, and every indicator suggests they will heed the call. How they deal with the new course will be fascinating to watch. "I just can't wait," says Small from his Wentworth office and it is easy to see why.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2009, 07:24:43 PM »
Why, you could ask, do you have to wait for pros - most of whom don't know a thing about good design - to determine whether the work is good or not?
It is just another example of cheerleading journalism perpetrating the myth that redesign is all about making the course more difficult - not better.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2009, 05:06:58 AM »
I toured the opening 3 holes and the closing 3 holes on Friday after a club match.

The course has been made exceptionally difficult, think Olympia Fields North on steriods. The course will undoubtedly be a good test for the pros but the average member - and Wentworth does have a very strong club - is likely to find the course far too difficult. 6 hour corporate rounds could be the norm.

The drop off to the right of 17 is similar in height to the 6th at Deal and on a blind hole as well. Many fine second shots will leave the player hoping for par. As for 18 the water wraps around the left side of the raised green, it's a definate risk, risk hole with little room to lay up and a tough shot if you do.

It will be very interesting to see how the work is received.
Cave Nil Vino

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2009, 10:05:53 AM »
Mark

Would you have a ballpark estimate for how many more shots the winner will take over 4 rounds?
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2009, 01:31:54 PM »
This is obviously a redesign with little regard for Colt. We had enough indications with the fairway bunkering a couple of years ago. Fair enough to Els & his team as they finally got their hands on the West course, with enough changes to add the signature to Colt's. However, it would be nice to refrain & stick to restoration on the East course for the sake of members and out of respect for Colt's work at Wentworth.

Even if the changes are sucessful & suit the needs of the pro's, it's nonetheless another lost Colt course, a victim of media coverage and pro tounaments. Fingers crossed for some of the other heathland classics in the area.

Gareth Williams

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2009, 10:15:14 AM »
This is obviously a redesign with little regard for Colt. We had enough indications with the fairway bunkering a couple of years ago. Fair enough to Els & his team as they finally got their hands on the West course, with enough changes to add the signature to Colt's. However, it would be nice to refrain & stick to restoration on the East course for the sake of members and out of respect for Colt's work at Wentworth.

Even if the changes are sucessful & suit the needs of the pro's, it's nonetheless another lost Colt course, a victim of media coverage and pro tounaments. Fingers crossed for some of the other heathland classics in the area.


I do worry that they are going just too far this time. Ernie and his team can't keep trotting out the "in keeping with Harry Colt's ideals" line when the course will, for many people, be a totally different proposition come March/April 2010 when it re-opens.

I also hear they are considering a premium for membership should the existing/new members want to play the West course - "ring fencing" it if you like. If that does happen I can see many members leaving in 2010.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2009, 06:56:33 AM »
Gareth

Did the membership have any say regarding this work? From the reports it seems like they made a lot of it up as they went along.  I can't believe Caring thinks he'll recoup this investment when he comes to sell the courses.

can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Gareth Williams

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2009, 10:08:28 AM »
Gareth

Did the membership have any say regarding this work? From the reports it seems like they made a lot of it up as they went along.  I can't believe Caring thinks he'll recoup this investment when he comes to sell the courses.





In a word, "no" Paul. The members have had little say in this re-design with the possible exception of a small group who are tied to Richard Caring.

The original brief was to spend £1.2-£1.4M (and lose c.£800k in course receipts) on replacing the current greens and attend to some "tidying up" around them.

However the schedule for doing this still meant the course being closed for 7-9 months so an idea to utilise that down time was taken and a case was made to Richard Caring for more changes and to sign off a total spend of £4.5m (approx)

I know he paid top dollar for the Wentworth Club (approx £110M) and since Jan '08 the club has been "quietly" for sale for a bid that would see a return on his investment.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2009, 07:10:54 PM »
I'll guess around 280 will win the 2010 PGA.

Contrary to popular belief Wentworth has a strong and close knit core of members.
Cave Nil Vino

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2009, 07:25:29 PM »
Mark

Do you know how the members feel about the redo?  Is there anyone who knows the history of the course/club well?  The club history by Renton Laidlaw is hopeless for us golf course nuts.

Thanks
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2009, 08:02:13 PM »
Paul, the impression I got was the better players are looking forward to the challenge the more moderate players are less excited but remember they have two other courses to play. WC isn't a one trick pony. Give me a few days and I'll see if there is a history buff.
Cave Nil Vino

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2009, 08:37:58 PM »
More updates at:

http://www.wentworthclub.com/golf/3196/

Who's writing this drivel?  A sales pitch from the owner?

"And what a finish we will have…in every possible sense. Not only will we have a golf course that will stand shoulder to shoulder with the very best in the world, we will have a dramatic 18th hole, a fitting finale for an iconic golf course. I believe in years to come it will become one of the most talked about and celebrated finishing holes in professional golf on either side of the Atlantic. Yes, it’s that special."
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Tom Birkert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2009, 01:00:43 PM »
I'm pretty sure it's being written by the Marketing Department...

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2009, 09:02:47 PM »
http://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/tours-and-news/opinion/bisset/430672/fergus-bisset-a-first-appearance.html

"And what about the West? Well there's a huge amount of work going on across the course but probably the most dramatic change is to the 18th where a water hazard, or brook, has been constructed in front of a new green - as you can see in this picture.

As we stood back in the fairway, where a good professional drive would end up, we remarked what a daunting a prospect the second shot was. We doubted if any of the pros would risk going for it in two. Then Ernie showed up and cheerily smacked six of eight shots on to the putting surface, using a five-wood from 235 yards. What did we know? "If only I could have done that last week." He joked in reference to his shot to the final hole of the WGC HSBC Champions that found a watery grave and cost him the title.

Els' design team has been overseeing the project at Wentworth and he's pleased with progress. "I've walked the course a couple of times and it looks fantastic," he said. "You can see now how spectacular the course will look when it re-opens."

Ernie then moved up to demonstrate the other way of playing the hole - a lay up with the second shot to some 80 yards short of the green. After we'd watched him lob a series of wedge shots tight to the hole, the chap standing beside me whispered in my ear, "So the conclusion is - it's still a bloody easy hole."


Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2009, 12:58:05 PM »
If I understand correctly, then It seems that many pro designers prefer Target Golf !

If so, then why ?


Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2010, 10:05:25 AM »
Well blimey here it is, the final product. Although the greens aren't really shown. 

Another classic course wrecked or modernized depending on you point of view.

I'll stick my neck out and guess that the work doesn't increase the average tournament round by more than 1-2 shots.



















can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Tom Birkert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2010, 10:34:28 AM »
Oh dear. Oh dear. Oh dear.

I didn't realise America was situated in Surrey.

Ernie Els should hang his head in shame.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2010, 11:16:25 AM »
Tom

Els deserves some of the blame, but I think he is just a famous figurehead.  His contradictory statements about the earlier projects and then this project have been laughable. 

The owner Richard Caring and the head of Els design team, Greg Letsche are mainly responsible for this.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2010, 11:41:44 AM »
Did it always have so little heather?

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2010, 11:50:22 AM »
Scott

No it used to have a lot more.  Particularly in the middle of the course. 
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2010, 12:00:37 PM »
When are they renaming it TPC Virginia Water?!


Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2010, 12:18:57 PM »
Most of the holes dont seem so different.

The real change is 18 which I dont care for. I never liked 18 as it was though, if it was my call I might have done something more with the tee shot, perhaps a central bunker that with a lay up calls for a 250+ second shot but with a gambers choice to narrowy allow a pass to the right then bringing an iron into play for the reward, Colty styed trio of cross bunkers say 50 yards off the front. No water though.

1st looks a bit too tight with that front left bunker.

Wil be interesting to see the opionions come May.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
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