Ask the Tillinghast Association...

[Phil_the_Author]

On several threads misinformation has been presented about the Tillinghast Association. This has not been done purposefully but simply mistakenly, yet the result is some confusion as to what exactly are the goals and purposes opf the Tillinghast Association and what services can be offered to clubs, architects and individuals.

With permission from the board of directors, of which I am a member, I am posting this thread to try and answer any and all questions that anyone may have. Feel free to ask anything, for all is game. From the history of the Association to funding questions to research projects to the website to... anything you might like to know. I only ask that you be as specific as possible. Just understand that there are some things that can't be answered. This includes proprietary information that some clubs and individuals have shared with us and some research that is ongoing regarding a variety of clubs.

For the most part though, I'll be able to share a good deal of information with you that will enable you to appreciate what an Association such as ours can accomplish and what the practical limitations are as well...

[Jeff_Brauer]

Phil,

Relax....the Tillie Assoc is way behind all the misinformation posted here about ASGCA!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

1. Since Pat Mucci listed Sunningdale in Scarsdale, NY as a Tillinghast course that doesn't get the recognition it may deserve, what exacltly did Tillie do there? It's not an original design of his as Raynor designed the original course. The Tillinghast Ass'n website lists the work done there as a reconstruction(R) and addition (A) on the website. Now, Mike deVries has done work on 5 holes. What remains of Tillinghast's work, if anything?

2. Tillie did an examination(E) of Philmont for the PGA as per the Ass'n website. What were the results of this? When did it take place?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I thought that there was a massive conspiracy in which the Tillie Association was creating work for the Ted Robinson construction firm and Rees Jone's Architectural frim.  Supposedly, this is being fostered by some frequent posters who have time for posting but little time for golf!
   Seriously, Tillie has great respect.  However, I will go on record for believing that the Red is now superior to the Black.  10-15 is all-world, but 14 Black is now a piece of _______, when 10-17 was once off the charts great.

[Phil_the_Author]

Steve,

You asked, "Since Pat Mucci listed Sunningdale in Scarsdale, NY as a Tillinghast course that doesn't get the recognition it may deserve, what exacltly did Tillie do there?"

The best persons to ask that of is Michael Moss and Mike DeVries as they have done extensive historical study on the course and are far more knowledgable on that than I am. Hopefully they'll chime in here. It is my understanding, in answer to your second question, " What remains of Tillinghast's work, if anything?", Not much, if anything. Both Mike's agaion can asnwer that better as well.

If they don't chime in I'll give you as good an answer as possible.

You also asked, "Tillie did an examination(E) of Philmont for the PGA as per the Ass'n website. What were the results of this? When did it take place?"

First, it took place prior to 1926. We know this because Tilly published an advertising brochure in 1926 in which he listed many of the course he worked on. In this listing he included a part titled "Examinations and Reports" in which he listed Philmont. The exact date we have not yet been able to ascertain.

What were the results? This too is a mystery. If there is a copy of the report and any other documents relating to his examination they would have them as all of Tilly's writings, drawings, sketches, documents and letters were destroyed in the 1950's when the barn where they were being stored burned to the ground...

[Phil_the_Author]

Robert,

I'll be up in New York sometime in opctober. I'd love to be standing on the 14th tee and have that discussion with you...

[Tom MacWood]

Baltusrol, Winged Foot and Bethpage are among Tilly's greatest designs and all three have hosted modern major championships. Hosting modern major championships and redesign go hand and hand, and as a result his original designs have been compromised. What is your position on the redesign of his courses in preparation for major championships?  Which is more important to the Association - preserving his original designs or hosting major championships?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You made a few comments expressing your opinions... thank you.

Regarding your questions:

"Hosting modern major championships and redesign go hand and hand, and as a result his original designs have been compromised. What is your position on the redesign of his courses in preparation for major championships? Which is more important to the Association - preserving his original designs or hosting major championships?"

Let's answer the second question first. We have no stand on that as we don't recognize the premise of the question. Actually, a better question, and feel very free to tell me that it isn't, is one that goes hand-in-hand with your first question. That is:

How would Tilly view minor changes to even complete changes on some holes on his courses for any reason, but especially in preparation for major championships?

Let's look at what Tilly HIMSELF said and DID.

The first major championship for any Tilly course was the 1919 U.S. Women's Amateur Championship at Shawnee. When Shawnee first opened for play it was 6,011 yards long in 1911. By the summer of 1914, in order to make it a stricter test for the world's best players during the Shawnee Open, and that is who came to what was considered by some to be the best national tournament after the USGA's Open & Amateur and the Met Open, Tilly not only lengthened the course by more than 500 yards, he completely redesigned entire sections of the course and re-routed it as well. Now regarding the coming women's championship, in 1917 he redesigned several holes just for that. Among them were the 6th & 14th holes. This is what the June & July 1917 issues of the American Golfer reported. June - “Mr. A.W. Tillinghast is preparing models [plasticene] for the development of the sixth and fourteenth holes at Shawnee. Until now these holes have remained almost precisely as they were when he laid them out in 1910…” July - “The development of the long 14th at Shawnee is to be pushed at once. Mr. A.W. Tillinghast, who planned the course, prepared a model [plasticene] whose lines will be followed closely. Pits will be placed on the 9th, and the additional teeing grounds on the 6th will make it a two-shotter under all conditions…”

The 1929 U.S. Open at Winged foot is another good example. In the June 1929 issue of Golf Illustrated, Tillinghast himself wrote, "Since Winged Foot was opened in 1922 there have been no changes..." What did he mean by the phrase "no changes?" Simple, that the holes remained as originally designed with tees, shape, routing and greens untouched. Does that mean NOTHING was done to the holes? To the contrary. He NEXT wrote, "Aside from the recent addition of less than a half dozen pits the West course..." So there were a few changes to the course yet in Tilly's mind, even with some change, the course remained the same.

What about 5 Farms? Were there any changes to the course prior to the 1932 U.S. Amateur Championship? September 1932, Golf Illustrated, authored by A.W. Tillinghast, "The course has remained unchanged since the 1928 P.G.A. Championship with the exception of several bunkers and the lengthening of No.16 to the extent of twenty yards by an introduction of a new teeing ground..."

Actually, going back to the 1929 Winged Foot article for a moment, Tilly wrote something quite interesting. "No course ever received a national championship with less preparation..."

It was already COMMON PRACTICE for courses hosting national and PGA Championships to be gone over with a view of what CHANGES MIGHT BE NECESSARY for it to host them. Tilly himself was asked to look at courses before they hosted national championships. A good example its Oakland Hills prior to its hosting the U.S. Open. This might actually qualify Tilly as the FIRST Open Doctor in that sense, especially as the course's designer, Donald Ross, was still quite alive and working.

The point is that Tilly both expected changes to courses hosting national or major championships, he oversaw some of them himself and on his own designs! To think that he would object to some changes on his courses about to host major championships for the purpose of making better holes and, most importantly, providing a better challenge to the world's greatest players goes against Tilly's own words.

Now, what is our position on "the redesign of his courses in preparation for major championships?"

First and foremost this is a decision that is the EXCLUSIVE purview of the club hosting it. No one has the right to interfere with that. All do have the right to their opinion on whether the change and/or redesign was an improvement or not and also as to whether or not to express it to the club or publicly.

As far as the idea or concept of whether changes to the work that Tilly did is proper or not, again, the Association stands by Tilly's own attitudes in this. He had no problem changing holes, and in some cases, re-routing entire courses where necessary to either improve the course or make it better able to test the greatest players in the world. We know this, because as shown above and in other cases, he did it himself.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Baltusrol, Winged Foot and Bethpage are among Tilly's greatest designs and all three have hosted modern major championships. Hosting modern major championships and redesign go hand and hand, and as a result his original designs have been compromised. What is your position on the redesign of his courses in preparation for major championships?  Which is more important to the Association - preserving his original designs or hosting major championships?

Tom, other than the 10th green I don't think much has been done to WFW.

While Tommy Naccarato liked some of Fazio's bunker work on # 5 and other holes, I wasn't such a fan.

After the 1959 Open trees were planted and the course narrowed considerably over the following years.
Most of those trees have been removed and the playing corridors opened back up.

The course is mostly intact.

As to Baltusrol Lower, I don't think much in the way of substantive work has been done there either.

In most cases, like WFW, tee lengthening seems to have been the predominant work in the last 30 or so years.

[Phil_the_Author]

Pat,

In line with what you said about how little actual change there has been at Baltusrol, below is an aeril discovered recently at Baltusrol. It is from 1933 which is an important year as Tilly had just finished all of his tweakings to the courses that he did since it was officially finished in 1924. This aerial is what is being used in the restoration work that is currently underway and will be continuing by Rees Jones. It is my understanding that they are very pleased with the work so far. Eviidently at some time the holes were outlinedand numbers also drawn in...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

That's an interesting photo.

Does the original photo show holes # 1, 2, 3 and 4 ?

I see the 3rd green, but not much else in that corner.

If Baltusrol uses that aerial as the blueprint for restoration I'm certain they will get a great restoration.

Now if I can just convince TEPaul that PV should use their aerials circa the early 20's for restoration purposes, life would be good in golfdom.

[Tom MacWood]

"Hosting modern major championships and redesign go hand and hand, and as a result his original designs have been compromised. What is your position on the redesign of his courses in preparation for major championships? Which is more important to the Association - preserving his original designs or hosting major championships?"

Let's answer the second question first. We have no stand on that as we don't recognize the premise of the question.

What do you mean you don't recognize the premise of the question?

[Tom MacWood]

Actually, a better question, and feel very free to tell me that it isn't, is one that goes hand-in-hand with your first question. That is:

How would Tilly view minor changes to even complete changes on some holes on his courses for any reason, but especially in preparation for major championships?

Minor changes? There have only been minor changes to Bethpage and Baltusrol? So if I am to read between the lines you are saying the Association does not object to redesign of Tilly's courses in preparation of major championships?

[Tom MacWood]

Pat,

In line with what you said about how little actual change there has been at Baltusrol, below is an aeril discovered recently at Baltusrol. It is from 1933 which is an important year as Tilly had just finished all of his tweakings to the courses that he did since it was officially finished in 1924. This aerial is what is being used in the restoration work that is currently underway and will be continuing by Rees Jones. It is my understanding that they are very pleased with the work so far. Eviidently at some time the holes were outlinedand numbers also drawn in...

How little the Lower course has actually changed? The bunkering has changed on every hole except 10, 12, 14 and 16. Do you have any idea why they haven't restored the HHA bunkers at #17?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

What you may be missing in assessing the above photo is the date of the change.

Many bunkering changes were made long before Rees set foot on Baltusrol.

I think you have to examine the time line of the changes and not just heap them all onto Rees in the last few years.

[Tom MacWood]

Pat
I know. RTJ made changes and there were some changes made in-house too. Who made the changes was not my point, my point is hosting modern Major Championships (especially US Opens) and change go hand and hand.

Could the Tillinghast Association's laissez-faire attitude toward preserving his work be a result of the founding members coming from a golf course that is an established Championship site (Baltusrol)? Because of the experience at their home club they more readily accept redesign, and based on that history its difficult for them, and the Association, to be outspoken advocates for preserving his work.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tmac,

I understand that you think courses ought to be preserved. I am with TePaul in that I am not sure its always unquestioned that this should and is always the best course of action.

Let me ask your opinion on this -

What do you think best preserves Tillie's reputation - hosting more USGA championships on his courses than any other gca (I think) or keeping every one of his courses exactly as it was?

I actually vote for the former.  At least, I think I would be happier looking down from heaven and seeing the bones I created being used for important tournaments, even if the skin had some cosmetic surgery.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,

I agree, once a course agrees to host a major, changes are sure to follow.

If those changes were confirned to lengthening I'd have no objections.
And, if those changes employed "elasticity" with the rough lines, I'd have no objections.

But, when clubs permanently move the rough lines and bring the bunkers in to meet them, that does trouble me.
I understand the need to present a challenge to the greatest golfers in the world, but, they're only there for 4 days every 10 years or so.  After they leave town, why should the members face a challenge only meant for the greatest players in the world.

Winged Foot recently rejected another Open.
Baltusrol seems to be out of the Open rota, but, it would appear, in the PGA rota.

Unfortunately, when you receive the King's schilling, you have to do the King's bidding.

Jeff Brauer,

The problem with your question is that it's not a one time occurance.
I'm a believer in the domino theory.
Once you start changing a course, that process usually continues to the degree that the original design integrity gets bastardized and ultimately lost.
Hence, the architecture would be in Tillinghast's name only, and not evidenced anywhere in the ground.

Tom MacWood has a valid point in terms of questioning the arms length nature of the relationships.

I think it's a dilema, and the solution to many dilemas is compromise.
But, once you compromise the architecture it loses its distinctive nature, that which seperated it from other works and authors.

[Tom MacWood]

Tmac,

I understand that you think courses ought to be preserved. I am with TePaul in that I am not sure its always unquestioned that this should and is always the best course of action.

Let me ask your opinion on this -

What do you think best preserves Tillie's reputation - hosting more USGA championships on his courses than any other gca (I think) or keeping every one of his courses exactly as it was?

I actually vote for the former.  At least, I think I would be happier looking down from heaven and seeing the bones I created being used for important tournaments, even if the skin had some cosmetic surgery.

A. I never said all of Tilly's courses (or any other architect's courses) should be preserved. I have consistently advocated preserving the best of the best. By the way adding length to a course with new tees is not redesign IMO.

B. I can appreciate your view on redesign seeing that you are founding member of Remodel University, and have been involved in the redesign of Maxwell's Dornick Hills, and a number of classic courses around Chicago.

As far as your question, Tilly's reputation is based on his great designs (most of which have never hosted major championships) not on the few courses that have hosted major championships. Bethpage-Black was a well known course prior to hosting a major championship - I recall reading about the man-eater when I was a kid. Likewise I don't believe Pete Dye's or CB Macdonald's or Stanley Thompson's reputations are based on hosting major championships. So to answer your question I would advocate preserving his best courses as close to their original design as possible with an understanding of the pressures created by modern equipment.

[Tom MacWood]

Jeff
I can understand why some architects would not be in favor of preservation, after all that could affect their livelihood, but the question is should the Tillinghast Association be in favor of preserving his work. If an organization formed to celebrate his work isn't in favor of it then who would be? 

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

In reality, there are many, many questions surrounding any functioning golf course.  There are even many, many questions regarding "preserving work."  I will let Phil answer, if he cares to, about how they feel about preserving Tillie's work, but for example,

Just preserving the course as an open golf course, rather than housing or a mall is one level.

Then, preserving it as a good golf course (in terms of maintenance - grasses, bunker quality, etc) and a good business (i.e., still able to attract play) is another level. This level may, for the best courses, include redesigning a bit to make it relevant to major championships.

Then, preserving it as closely as possible to some point in time, best (in someone's opinion, which we all know will vary) representation of that architects work on that course is another level that you seemingly strive for (or think others should using their money to suit your tastes)

These are all questions we have debated here before, apparently with no answer.  As Phil has said, given the competing needs at any specific course, we simply have to cede the "right" to do with the course to the course's owners.  We can lobby for our own tastes all we want, but in the end, someone else will answer the questions on what is best for them.

BTW, while I agree that no gca's reputation is created solely from championship courses, I think it goes a long way towards it, since they get so much attention.  My personal recollection of Tillie as a youngster was the USGA article about him in 1974, which noted that he is largely forgotten, but that many tournaments were being played on his courses that year.  So, at least for me, that article and those tourneys put Tillie back on the map, since there were so few Tillie courses anywhere I ever lived.

Lastly, you have some facts wrong in your not so veiled insults to me and other gca's, and for some reason, you decided to take a mully (a term invented at a Tillie course, according to legend) to insult me yet again.  I say its the sabbath, and the bible tells us to rest on the sabbath, so I suggest you take a break from being a jerk, at least until tomorrow.  Thanks in advance.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Watching the Solheim Cup today, another thought struck me, if we can discuss it civilly.  (I will try)

Even the best courses of the best gca's are found wanting to some degree.  As much as some, for example, call for the original incarnation of ANGC to the Jones/Mac design, that is based on general principles as much as the original hole design, no?  Few argure that RTJ's 16th insn't better than the original, or the new 10th didn't solve some drainage issues, etc.

I don't know the entire design histories of WF, BP and Balto, but I presume there were many changes in advance of Rees coming in that we don't discuss.  I also know that if those (or any) original features hadn't been touched - like new grasses, new bunkers, new drainage, the course would be unplayable today, even if touching them gives an opportunity for "design improvements" as well as infrastructure/maintenance ones.

My questions are twofold,

Is remodeling for a tournament any better or any worse than remodeling for every day play?

Do we presume that even the best of the best had no flaws and/or that we could tell how the course would have evlolved naturallly as opposed to with the intervention of the hand of man?

Lastly, is the whole argument we are engaging in just too general to draw conclusions.

I await your reasoned response.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

My response above was addressed to Tom but also to you, so you don't feel left out.

The one time occurrence is sort of a myth, isn't it?  Most clubs rebuild something or other nearly every year, in subltle ways at least - tees, greens, bunkers.  If they didn't, the course wouldn't be playable, at least by modern standards, and then MORE likley to dissapear.

Yes, there are compromises.  I guess I believe that starting the argument with "never touch a masterpiece" is not possible in reality and shouldn't (can't) be part of the equation for a rational discussion, can it?

[Phil_the_Author]

I can see that not visiting the site for 15 hours has put me more than a bit behind!

Tom Macwood,

Let's get to your points first.

You firs quoted yourself stating, "Hosting modern major championships and redesign go hand and hand, and as a result his original designs have been compromised. What is your position on the redesign of his courses in preparation for major championships? Which is more important to the Association - preserving his original designs or hosting major championships?"

This was followed by part of my answer, "Let's answer the second question first. We have no stand on that as we don't recognize the premise of the question."

You then asked, "What do you mean you don't recognize the premise of the question?"

Tom, your premise contains the following statements presented as facts, NONE of which we accept as such, "as a result his original designs have been compromised..." That is your OPINION, as we disagree that his original designs have been COMPROMISED; they have not, and that is our opinion. Also, as this answer was given in response to the second question, "Which is more important to the Association - preserving his original designs or hosting major championships?", we do not recognize this as having any validity as a question whatsoever. Neither is "more important to the Association" and we will not be asked to CHOOSE simply because you ask us to.

In addition, we have been the biggest single aid to any & all Tillinghast courses in promoting the preservation of Tilly's work and providing research to enable proper restorations of it when asked... and we have been asked QUITE OFTEN!

You also asked another question that I am forced to repeat the preceding  portion to it in order to put it into context and properly answer it:

Quoting me, "Actually, a better question, and feel very free to tell me that it isn't, is one that goes hand-in-hand with your first question. That is:

How would Tilly view minor changes to even complete changes on some holes on his courses for any reason, but especially in preparation for major championships?"

You stated and asked, "Minor changes? There have only been minor changes to Bethpage and Baltusrol? So if I am to read between the lines you are saying the Association does not object to redesign of Tilly's courses in preparation of major championships?"

Tom, not only can't you read between the lines you can't seem to even read the lines themselves! I ASKED A QUESTION OF TILLY! The question wasn't simply MINOR CHANGES but minor changes to EVEN COMPLETE CHANGES ON SOME HOLES..."

The point of that, and what followed directly after was to show that Tilly himself had APPROVED of making everything from MINOR CHANGES TO EVEN COMPLETE CHANGES TO HOLES ON HIS COURSES PRIOR TO THEIR HOSTING MAJOR CHAMPIONSHIPS."

Since Tilly himself approved of this in order to make the holes better then who are we to tell him he was wrong? That since Tilly was hired to examine and make recommendations for possible changes to courses prior to hosting major championships on courses that were not designed by him then objecting to other architects being hired for the same purpose on his courses would be a bit hypocritical.

Going further, you used the phrase "does not object to redesign of Tilly's courses..." Again, we don't recognize that "premise" behind your question. Again, as I stated previously, "minor changes to even complete changes on some holes..." DOES NOT CONSTITUTE  the REDESIGN of a COURSE."

Again, you asked and stated and then asked, "How little the Lower course has actually changed? The bunkering has changed on every hole except 10, 12, 14 and 16. Do you have any idea why they haven't restored the HHA bunkers at #17?"

You really do need to learn the phrase "In My Opinion" as you once again have demonstrated that quality of pronouncing things as facts those that are simply your opinion, a quality that so endears you to many.

Tom, you need to get yourself a copy of the Baltusrol history book. One of those who worked on it, Bob Trebus, a member of Baltusrol since before you were born Tom, emailed me this in response to your question regarding the "Hell's Half Acre"

Bob - "What is he talking about? The bunkering at Baltusrol is pretty much as the original. The Hell's Half acre is still there. In fact plans are to let the grass grow as it was in its early days. The routing is intact... I note MacWood isn't even a member of the Association so how does he know what we do? Tell him to join and he will receive our emails that demonstrate all we do to assist clubs with their restorations..."
 
Of course you simply can't help yourself and must once again resort to insults that display your COMPLETE LACK OF KNOWLEDGE on the subject:

"Could the Tillinghast Association's laissez-faire attitude toward preserving his work be a result of the founding members coming from a golf course that is an established Championship site (Baltusrol)? Because of the experience at their home club they more readily accept redesign, and based on that history its difficult for them, and the Association, to be outspoken advocates for preserving his work."

"Laissez-faire attitude toward preserving his work?" You are VERY MISTAKEN and GRSOSSLY UNINFORMED!

"Because of the experience at their home club they more readily accept redesign, and based on that history its difficult for them, and the Association, to be outspoken advocates for preserving his work." This statement just once again shows how ignorant you are and how little you know.

You asked two questions of Jeff. "Jeff, I can understand why some architects would not be in favor of preservation, after all that could affect their livelihood, but the question is should the Tillinghast Association be in favor of preserving his work. If an organization formed to celebrate his work isn't in favor of it then who would be?"

Once again you display ignorance and lack of any knowledge on the subject.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jeff,

You asked for Tom's opinion on a question. I hope you don't mind me giving you mine:

"What do you think best preserves Tillie's reputation - hosting more USGA championships on his courses than any other gca (I think) or keeping every one of his courses exactly as it was?"

Wasn't it due to several of his courses hosting major championships after not having done so for many years that caused Frank Hannigan to write about Tilly being a "forgotten genius?" His great courses have always been viewed with honor and respect as such. Their reputations as wonderful tests of golf have always been recognized. It was TILLY who was forgotten despite this and it was Tilly who was once again rememberred because of hosting these championships. As far as "keeping his courses exactly as it was" is moot in my mind as Tilly HIMSELF made changes to his own courses prior to hosting major championships. He considered things such as adding & subtracting bunkers and lengthening of holes with new tee boxes to be MINOR changes. We know this because these were his own and exact words.

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