News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Patrick_Mucci

Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« on: August 20, 2009, 09:13:13 PM »
in the Metropolitan NY area ?

Some of his courses in the MET NY area are:

Winged Foot West
Winged Foot East
Quaker Ridge
Fenway
Sunningdale
Ridgewood
Baltusrol Upper
Baltusrol Lower
Shackamaxon
Alpine
Somerset Hills
Bethpage Black

Is his body of work in that area so strong that there's an inherent bias to avoid giving some of those courses greater accolades ?

Are there extra-regional/terratorial biases against giving too much credit to so many courses concentrated in such a limited area ?

If some of these courses were far removed from this densely packed grouping, would the outlier courses reap greater accolades ?

What other architect has produced a dozen terrific courses in such a small radius ?   

Dave Falkner

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2009, 09:17:29 PM »
Devereux Emmet

I would submit that there seems to be a bigger bias agaisnt Mr Emmet

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2009, 09:22:12 PM »
Dave,

I love DE courses, but, can you name 12 in the MET NY area that stack up to AWT's dozen ?

Dave Falkner

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2009, 09:30:18 PM »
Pat

as soon as I posted I thought "There is no way I can think of twelve that compare"  Its just theat  Dev gets  so little love  that I figured if there is anyone who seems to be getting a raw deal it is him

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2009, 10:13:30 PM »
Pat,

Well, 25% of those courses have held US Opens and PGA Championships, multiple times.  Not much bias there.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Phil_the_Author

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2009, 11:32:50 PM »
Gil Hanse did a remarkable restoration at Fenway which has one of my favorite sets of Tillinghast greens and my favorite tilly drivable par-4 up the hill to a most remarkable two-tiered green! This course definitely, as well as Alpine, do not get the praise that they deserve.

But I would agree with Dave that IF there is a bias it certainly seems that Devereaux Emmet is deeply under-appreciated. His courses are fun to oplay iover and over and have many subtleties in their individual designs that come out only after numerous plays.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 06:19:11 AM by Philip Young »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2009, 06:16:58 AM »
I don't believe there is bias against Tilly. NY is just a very very tough market. There are so many great golf courses its hard to focus on one or one architect.

I do think I would call it a bias, but there is definitely a nonchalant attitude when it comes to redesigning his work. For all the good things the Tillinghast Association does the one they don't do well is to promote preservation of his work. For example I have not heard word come from them regarding all the changes to his original designs, Bethpage-Black is a good example. I wonder if the fact the founders come from Baltusrol, a course redesigned often, has something to do with that attitude.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2009, 07:08:01 AM »
Tom Macwood,

You seem to simply revel in making self-serving statements designed to promote an argument. Statements that have neither basis in fact nor any knowledge whatsoever of what an organization such as the Tillinghast Association is attempting to accomplish now and in the future in any area.

You stated, "For all the good things the Tillinghast Association does the one they don't do well is to promote preservation of his work."

First of all, on behalf of the Association I'd like to thank you for the compliment and recognizing that we do some things well. Before you think that is a sarcastic statement, let me assure you that it is not and that as a member of the Tillinghast Association's board of directors I can actually do that and thank you on our behalf.

Now because I am on the board I can also ask you, in regard to what the Association does to "promote preservation of his work," How would you have even an inkling of what the Association does in that regard?

Are you a member?  Have you ever gone to any of the Association's meetings where this concern of yours could have been discussed? Have you ever even emailed the Association to ask anyone this question? Before you accuse the Tillinghast Association of "not doing something well" you ought to at least have done this well yourself, don't you think? Especially where you have absolutely no knowledge of what the Association does in this regard.

I almost didn't comment on this as I believe that you are simply looking to bait and argue. I am not going to do that. I am providing a single response to your outrageously unfounded claim because you have made it publicly on this forum and some answer for those who read it and wonder needs to be given.

You stated, "For example I have not heard word come from them regarding all the changes to his original designs, Bethpage-Black is a good example. I wonder if the fact the founders come from Baltusrol, a course redesigned often, has something to do with that attitude."

So once again because YOU are UNAWARE of something then it must not happen. Then you not only imply that it is fact you cite another fact in a manner that both backs up your point as proof and insults people personally. You especially expose an obvious lack of understanding as to how renovations, restorations and changes come about at golf clubs, public or private. You

The REAL FACTS are that you simply do not know yet you accuse and insult. You have no knowledge of how often members of our Association have been involved with architects aiding them in historical research to attempt to enable them to either create a Master Plan that reflects this and allows the proper restoration of Tillinghast features to the course.

You have no knowledge of how many times members of his courses contact us with questions along these lines nor the research and answers that we provide them with. For example, did you know that in the last three weeks ALONE I personally have responded to email & telephone questions from MORE than a DOZEN members & or clubs of Tilly courses with questions dealing with the original work that Tilly did at their courses? You certainly AREN'T aware of the responses that I sent. And I am but one of several members who actively provide this help.

Yet according to you we don't do this well!

According to you we must not be making any comments regarding changes to his designs based upon the "fact" that YOU have not heard of any. Of course that is the point... YOU haven't heard of any comments given, and before you ask, you won't. First of all you don't have a right to that information. Secondly, anything said regarding work done at Tilly courses are PRIVATE correspondence BETWEEN THEM AND US and will remain so unless those who have received it choose to make it public. We respectfully acknowledge that is their right and have no problem from our end if they do so.

Finally, that the "founders" of the Tillinghast Association are member of "Baltusrol, a course redesigned often, has something to do with that attitude" has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with anything.

Once again you have NO IDEA whatsoever what comments have been made by these "founders" when questions as to potential changes to the courses at Baltusrol have been brought up. Mentioning it as you have is clearly meant in the negative and is an unwarranted insult for which you should apologize...

Finally, if any member of the board is a member of a Tillinghast club and has questions regarding his work and/or potential changes or recommendations at your club, we will be more than happy to provide as much information and research is available to us and to do so as we have always done, FREE of charge.

My apologies to all others posting on this thread but Tom's unfounded comments demanded a response. I promise not to turn this into a running argument...

« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 08:12:53 AM by Philip Young »

Jeff Spittel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2009, 08:00:00 AM »
You could add my beloved Suburban and Upper Montclair to the list from that area as well.
Fare and be well now, let your life proceed by its own design.

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2009, 08:00:34 AM »
Pat -

I don't know about bias, but last year we determined that there was no conspiracy.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35888.0/

Donald Ross produced these terrific courses in a like area.

Agawam Hunt
Belmont
Brae Burn
Charles River
Metacomet
Oyster Harbor
Plymouth
Pocasset
Point Judith
Rhode Island Country Club
Sakonnet
Salem
Triggs Memorial
Wannamoisett
Whitinsville
Wianno
Winchester
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Mike Sweeney

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2009, 08:19:06 AM »
Patrick,

I am happy you made it to ""New England" this summer at CC of Fairfield! Keep going next time or you can stay with us on our couch next week and we will show you some of the Ross courses that have not been touched by RTJ. The sporty stuff you love and who don't care about the ratings.

By the way, why did Tilly never get the big oceanfront job? Newport was a redo for some New York friends. Was he too one dimensional? That list you posted sure is!

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2009, 08:48:36 AM »
Pat -

Nine of these courses are ranked in the Golfweek classic hot 100, six in the top 50.

National titles are regularly contested on these courses.

I don't think being in greater New York City is keeping these courses out of the spotlight.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2009, 08:58:03 AM »
Patrick:

It is not a bias.  It's just that there are also a bunch of non-Tillinghast courses in the Met area which are pretty good, too:

Maidstone
National
Shinnecock Hills
Sebonack
Deepdale
Garden City
The Creek
Piping Rock
Inwood
Engineers
Meadow Brook
Westchester
Century
Knollwood
Sleepy Hollow
Essex County
Plainfield

And I'm sure I missed a couple of good ones.  So Tillinghast's work will not generate ALL of the attention.  And it is no big surprise if his second-tier courses are a bit underrated compared to some that I listed ... all rankings tend to have a bias against loading up with one architect's work, and prefer to have a variety of designers represented.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2009, 09:59:03 AM »
Tom Macwood,

You seem to simply revel in making self-serving statements designed to promote an argument. Statements that have neither basis in fact nor any knowledge whatsoever of what an organization such as the Tillinghast Association is attempting to accomplish now and in the future in any area.

You stated, "For all the good things the Tillinghast Association does the one they don't do well is to promote preservation of his work."

First of all, on behalf of the Association I'd like to thank you for the compliment and recognizing that we do some things well. Before you think that is a sarcastic statement, let me assure you that it is not and that as a member of the Tillinghast Association's board of directors I can actually do that and thank you on our behalf.

Now because I am on the board I can also ask you, in regard to what the Association does to "promote preservation of his work," How would you have even an inkling of what the Association does in that regard?

Are you a member?  Have you ever gone to any of the Association's meetings where this concern of yours could have been discussed? Have you ever even emailed the Association to ask anyone this question? Before you accuse the Tillinghast Association of "not doing something well" you ought to at least have done this well yourself, don't you think? Especially where you have absolutely no knowledge of what the Association does in this regard.

I almost didn't comment on this as I believe that you are simply looking to bait and argue. I am not going to do that. I am providing a single response to your outrageously unfounded claim because you have made it publicly on this forum and some answer for those who read it and wonder needs to be given.

You stated, "For example I have not heard word come from them regarding all the changes to his original designs, Bethpage-Black is a good example. I wonder if the fact the founders come from Baltusrol, a course redesigned often, has something to do with that attitude."

So once again because YOU are UNAWARE of something then it must not happen. Then you not only imply that it is fact you cite another fact in a manner that both backs up your point as proof and insults people personally. You especially expose an obvious lack of understanding as to how renovations, restorations and changes come about at golf clubs, public or private. You

The REAL FACTS are that you simply do not know yet you accuse and insult. You have no knowledge of how often members of our Association have been involved with architects aiding them in historical research to attempt to enable them to either create a Master Plan that reflects this and allows the proper restoration of Tillinghast features to the course.

You have no knowledge of how many times members of his courses contact us with questions along these lines nor the research and answers that we provide them with. For example, did you know that in the last three weeks ALONE I personally have responded to email & telephone questions from MORE than a DOZEN members & or clubs of Tilly courses with questions dealing with the original work that Tilly did at their courses? You certainly AREN'T aware of the responses that I sent. And I am but one of several members who actively provide this help.

Yet according to you we don't do this well!

According to you we must not be making any comments regarding changes to his designs based upon the "fact" that YOU have not heard of any. Of course that is the point... YOU haven't heard of any comments given, and before you ask, you won't. First of all you don't have a right to that information. Secondly, anything said regarding work done at Tilly courses are PRIVATE correspondence BETWEEN THEM AND US and will remain so unless those who have received it choose to make it public. We respectfully acknowledge that is their right and have no problem from our end if they do so.

Finally, that the "founders" of the Tillinghast Association are member of "Baltusrol, a course redesigned often, has something to do with that attitude" has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with anything.

Once again you have NO IDEA whatsoever what comments have been made by these "founders" when questions as to potential changes to the courses at Baltusrol have been brought up. Mentioning it as you have is clearly meant in the negative and is an unwarranted insult for which you should apologize...

Finally, if any member of the board is a member of a Tillinghast club and has questions regarding his work and/or potential changes or recommendations at your club, we will be more than happy to provide as much information and research is available to us and to do so as we have always done, FREE of charge.

My apologies to all others posting on this thread but Tom's unfounded comments demanded a response. I promise not to turn this into a running argument...



Phil
I don't recall anyone from the Tilly Association expressing any concern over the redesign of Baltusrol, nor have I heard any suggestions from them that the original design should be preserved or restored. I do not recall you acknowledging (or voicing any concerns about) the major changes at Bethpage. Just the opposite over the years you have defended Rees Jones work there. IMO Tilly deserves stronger advocates.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2009, 10:39:21 AM »
Pat,

Well, 25% of those courses have held US Opens and PGA Championships, multiple times.  Not much bias there.


Jeff,

You're missing the point.

It's the other terrific courses that don't seem to get their due.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2009, 10:58:31 AM »

 ... all rankings tend to have a bias against loading up with one architect's work, and prefer to have a variety of designers represented.


Tom Doak,

You've hit the nail on the head.

That's the crux of this thread

Do some of his courses in this area get short shrift due to the desire for variety amongst designers ?



Michael Moore,

The area you selected is about 33 % greater than the area where those dozen courses are centered.

The quality of AWT's courses in that concentration is astounding.

While I think many of the courses you cited are terrific, I don't believe that many are in the same league with AWT's dozen.



Mike Sweeney,

The body of AWT's par 5's tend to be outstanding, that's a trait/feature that's hard to duplicate.

Don't confuse USGA and/or PGA setups, presentations and looks for similarity in architectural design and features.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2009, 11:00:07 AM »
Phil Young,

I think Tom MacWood raises a VALID issue that can't be dismissed as merely fomenting dissent.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2009, 11:00:12 AM »

Jeff,

You're missing the point.

It's the other terrific courses that don't seem to get their due. [/b][/size][/color]

Pat,

Which ones? They are all ranked except for Shack, which I have not played, and Alpine. Are you saying Alpine should be ranked on some Top 100 list?

Phil_the_Author

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2009, 11:05:53 AM »
Tom have you ever simply ASKED any of those involved those questions in a civil and non-judgmental manner. I CAN'T RECALL that ever happening.

Again, you cite two examples of which you really don't know any of the background on and make the accusation that no one has done anything to preserve or restore Tilly's work. In this you are absolutely wrong.

Yes, I both defended, supported and liked the work that Rees Did. I also have been critical of work that WASN'T DONE to restore the greens to their original dimensions. That wasn't Rees' or the USGA fault but the fault of a limited budget. Since 2002 several greens have been expanded and more are going to be in the future, and frankly speaking, this is happening because of MY WORK in researching the course and finding the tangible proof that wouild allow for this to happen.

That having been said, I also have approved of the FEW, and there were not as many as you believe, changes to the course. Tilly himself believed in changes to his own designs when necessary to either make the hole better or to keep up with technological changes. The most important aspect to any change is to m,ake certain that it reflects what the architect, in this case Tilly, had planned as challenges in the design.

In my coming Volume II which I know you are waiting on with baited breath, I will be including a section on the evolution of ALL the courses at Bethpage. I'm certain you'll find it most enlightening!

Phil_the_Author

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2009, 11:12:10 AM »
Pat,

He has not. It certainly is a VALID QUESTION to ask the Association what their stance on restorations/renovations on Tilly courses is. it is also a VALID QUESTION to ask if there is any specific information that can be shared.

But he didn't ask any questions, rather he personally accused the Association of doing a poor job in this area when he personally has absolutely NO KNOWLEDGE WHATSOEVER of what anyonme has actually done or not. That is why he is wrong and as you put it so very well, is simply fomenting dissent.

By the way, I see he avoided answering any of my questions. That, too, speaks volumes. Anyway, I think this will degenerate the thread into what it should not be. If you have specific questions on this IM me and I'll be happy to answer them. I won't continue this any longer.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2009, 11:22:56 AM »

Michael Moore,

The area you selected is about 33 % greater than the area where those dozen courses are centered.

The quality of AWT's courses in that concentration is astounding.

While I think many of the courses you cited are terrific, I don't believe that many are in the same league with AWT's dozen.[/b][/size]



And the population of that area in RI/MA is probably 1/8 of the area that you chose. And it is no picnic to try and play Somerset and WF in the same day with normal traffic patterns. On a per capita basis and ease of travel basis there is no comparison. RL/MA smokes your parkland one dimensional examples of architecture. You still have not addresses why Tilly never got the waterside location that Ross and others did. Why not?

The only thing more overrated than your list is ND football in every pre-season poll the last ten years!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2009, 11:37:30 AM »

Michael Moore,

The area you selected is about 33 % greater than the area where those dozen courses are centered.

The quality of AWT's courses in that concentration is astounding.

While I think many of the courses you cited are terrific, I don't believe that many are in the same league with AWT's dozen.[/b][/size]



And the population of that area in RI/MA is probably 1/8 of the area that you chose.
Perhaps today, but, in the early 1900's I doubt the difference was that substantive.
I didn't choose the area, AWT did.


And it is no picnic to try and play Somerset and WF in the same day with normal traffic patterns.

What do guys who live in New York City know about driving ?
I'd be shocked if you had a driver's license.
Somerset to WF is a little over an hour if you know WHERE and HOW to drive.

I can see you and TEPaul taking days to travel between the two courses.


On a per capita basis and ease of travel basis there is no comparison. RL/MA smokes your parkland one dimensional examples of architecture. You still have not addresses why Tilly never got the waterside location that Ross and others did. Why not?

Considering the huge disparity between the number of courses Ross and AWT designed, and, the areas they focused on, I don't know that Ross got that many waterfront sites.

Didn't AWT have a hand in Newport ?
Shawnee
North Shore



The only thing more overrated than your list is ND football in every pre-season poll the last ten years!

As the Zen Master said, "we'll see"


Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2009, 11:41:49 AM »


Phil
I don't recall anyone from the Tilly Association expressing any concern over the redesign of Baltusrol, nor have I heard any suggestions from them that the original design should be preserved or restored. I do not recall you acknowledging (or voicing any concerns about) the major changes at Bethpage. Just the opposite over the years you have defended Rees Jones work there. IMO Tilly deserves stronger advocates.

Tom - take a look at Phillip's extensive discussion of his input and thought process associated with the Bethpage restoration in the terrific thread he did before the US Open.  You might not agree with his thought process but I cannot imagine someone being more involved in that project.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2009, 12:19:03 PM »
Patrick,

Given our tendency to rank things, its only natural that some courses of a gca can't be his top ones.  The consensus is that BP, Balturrol and WF are the best and the others are good, but not quite major championship worthy.

I am not sure what else can be done.  I doubt those courses don't get respect they deserve.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Sweeney

Re: Is there a bias against Tillinghast courses
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2009, 05:09:02 PM »

Perhaps today, but, in the early 1900's I doubt the difference was that substantive.


Try again Pat.  ;)

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922422.html

Tilly left the third most populous town to live in the first. Philly guys move to NY for a reason.  :D

By the way, how many different wind and weather combinations have you played Sakonnet and RI Country Club in?

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back