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Damian

Ranfurlie
« on: April 25, 2002, 11:05:20 PM »
I've seen a number of posts on other threads indicating that people are keen to hear about Ranfurlie, Mike Clayton's first 18 hole design for Amstel Golf Club at Cranbourne in Victoria.

I'm a member at Amstel and have had about 6 rounds at Ranfurlie since it opened on 29th March.

There are some photos of the first nine at http://www.amstel.org.au/openday.htm.

The course has come up very well. the vast majority of members are very satisfied with how it has turned out so far and so they should be.

A plead to those planning a visit in the near future; please don't be too critical about the condition of the course, it's brand new and there are still a number of bare patches around on the fairways where the couch runners have not closed over quite yet as well as lines where recent drainage works has occured. I believe the fairway grass is Legend couch and the greens bent. The holes at the back of the course (4, 5, 6, 12, 18, 17, 14) which were constructed first and are a bit older are in superb condition.

From the back tees, the course is probably relatively short by the standards of the higher profile developments around at a moment at a touch more than 6200m par 72.

However, there is great variety of in the holes:-
-  Par 3's vary between 128m and 180m
-  Par 4's vary between 270m and 419m
-  Par 5's vary between 468m and 530m

My favourite hole, even though I have not got close to parring it yet, is the 5th. The par 4 5th is about 380m uphill and runs towards the south, i.e. into the prevailing wind. The green, which is a large two tiered affair, is guarded by 2 large bunkers on left side, one greenside, the other about 25m short of the putting surface. Most times for the Saturday member competition, the flag has been set on the top step on the left side. The shortest club I've hit for my approach is a 6 iron, but into the breeze you will needs long iron or even wood to reach and as hinted before, don't go left. From the photos in the URL above, you'll see that it is a visually attractive hole as well as being psychologically daunting.

In general, it is a relatively easy driving course; that is, the fairways are very generous in width, so finding the short grass of the tee should not present huge difficulties. However, the fun starts on your approach shots. Attempting approaches from the wrong side can put quite a dint in your score. The slopes on the firm greens mean you need to hit very good shot to get close.

By way of example, the 12th hole is probably the weakest on the course, but last Saturday the flag was cut on the right side close to the front edge. A bunker is located about 5m short of the putting surface, on the right side. I tried to approach from the centre right position with 53 degree wedge. My ball pitched about 6 feet past the hole, the proceed to head straight to the back edge, a good 50 feet from the hole. What I needed to do was approach from the left side of the fairway, taking the bunker out of line on play and pitch the ball short of the green and let it run up.

If you miss the fairways, the first cut of rough of about 3-5m is not too unforgiving, buy many fairways are lined with long grass. Not thick like at The National where missed fairway means lost ball, but thick enough that hacking out with your wedge is required.

I think the course is similar in style to The Dunes. The land is not as spectacular as The Dunes, but I also think that Ranfurlie is more strategically demanding. At The Dunes, you stand on the tee and it becomes quite obvious where to hit it  while the punishment for not hitting it there is far from severe. Not so on both scores for Ranfurlie. You must hit it in the right place off the tee to give yourself the best chance on your approach, then you must hit the approach very well from there.

All in all, I think the course is great fun to play and hope any visitors also enjoy it... :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Shane Gurnett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2002, 12:50:35 AM »
Thanks for the report Damian, as many of us are looking forward to our game on the 5th. Don't be at all concerned about the less than perfect conditioning (these days anything less than Metro standard is imperfect in the eyes of the punters), as there's so much more to a quality course than good grass. Besides, after playing at Commonwealth for the last 12 years, I've become used to the od less than perfect lie.

The strategic element to the course sounds very interesting and is really what its all about anyway.

Thanks for the insight, and roll on the 5th of May......

Shane
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Daley

Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2002, 06:00:16 AM »
I have to agree Shane. The course that needs to be in top condition to be well-percieved is weaker for the blemish.

Looking forward to having a crack at Ranfurlie with the Southern GCA die-hards in early May.

Clayts and his team did a wonderful job of the upgrage at Peninsula North. In my opinion this jumps the track from 10-12 in Melbourne to somewhere like ... 6-9. Things to lookout for:

1 x 150 metre long bunker that is as wide as a politician's mind.

1 x the nearest replica to the classic par-3, 5th hole at Royal Melbourne West - but played from a lower elevation.

2-3 tasteful additions of fairway bunkering.

2-3 new greens with interesting contours: teasing but playable. No sighting of either Indian or African elephants within precinct!

Lots of examples of incorporation of the "managed unkempt" appearance that characterises much of the best of the Sandbelt. Remarkably, some new holes look like a cross-pollination of Royal, Kingston Heath, and yes, even bits of Pine Valley.

After playing there a couple of days ago, I came away convinced it was the best course upgrade I have seen in Australia; even surpassing their effort at Portsea.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2002, 03:18:48 PM »
Damian:

I'll concur will what Shane and Paul said about conditioning - if you've read much of what's been said here over the past couple of months, you'd be relieved to know that we don't place much importance on fairway conditioning.  As long as the green surfaces and surroundings are firm and fast, I'm happy!

Your comment about it being a 'relatively easy driving course' doesn't surprise me at all -  I know that Mike draws much inspiration from Royal Melbourne, the most famous example of an easy driving course.  But the second shot is where the fun begins, because a drive in the wrong part of the fairway makes the second shot so much more challenging.

Having finally moved to the new course, do you feel the members are happy with what they did?  ie. Do they think they are better off?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Clayton

Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2002, 06:32:25 PM »
Damian
Glad you are enjoying it although it won't be everybodys cup of tea.
I met a member yesterday who was happy some of the rough had been cut.It is however an important part of the place because of the contrasting colours out there.
He was finding it hard to find his ball in the rough and wondered if we could plant some 'bushes' to make it easier to pinpoint where the ball had gone.

Spare me.
Open a month and they are already thinking of ways to wreck it.
Fear not. I will be keeping an eye on them.

Paul
I think Peninsula will be really good once the first four are more in character with the rest of the course.
Probably its the best piece of land -outside of RM - in the whole city so it should be one of the best.
Fantastic committee and manager to work for which really makes it easy.
Maybe we can play there on the 5th before Ranfurlie ie. 7.00 am.
Anyone interested?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2002, 08:54:12 PM »
Can anyone else get the link in Damian's post to work? I can't   :-[  and I very much would like to see some pics!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2002, 10:21:44 PM »
Ran,

Here's a working link:

http://www.amstel.org.au/openday.htm



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Justin_Ryan

Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2002, 05:05:53 AM »
Damian
I'm glad to hear that the vast majority of the members are liking the course.  We need some more golf course designers in this country, and hopefully this will lead to more work for Mike & Co.  It is just a shame that I won't be able to make it for a look with the other GCA boys.  Mike's offer of a game at Peninsula in the morning is really like rubbing salt into the wounds.

Although I haven't seen the course, I like the sound of the design philosophy, with the variety of differing length holes.  One of the many difficulties I have with the new breed of 6600 metre plus courses is that they have little room for the more interesting shorter par threes and fours.  Of course Brian Walshe disagrees with me, because with his length the driveable par fours are now around 360 metres.

Paul
It sounds like you are now possibly rating the North course as highly or higher than the South.  How does it stack up?

Mike
Will you be doing the other four holes on PN as well?  And when?  How exactly are the first four holes out of character?  I could take a wild guess, as I seem to remember that my favorite firm (and Chris Kane's) were there before you, but I may be mistaken.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Clayton

Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2002, 06:33:56 AM »
Justin

It looks like the tees and fairway bunkers will be done this winter before the Vic Amateur -Dec. 20 about- and then the greens right after that
The club are holding the Tour School on the South and the Amateur on the North in the same week.

Your guess would be right so there is an interesting contrast between two very different styles of architecture.

The two courses will hopefully be as good as each other -The South will be the longer more difficult one but the North will be a lot of fun.
Hopefully the members will be split in their preference which is rarely the case at a 36 hole club.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Clayton

Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2002, 06:37:30 AM »
Ran
Those pictures are awful -we will try to get some decent ones to look at shortly
-
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Daley

Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2002, 02:46:35 AM »
Justin:

The North Course always had the potential to surpass the South Course, and now it has.

When you play the North, you come away thinking what you may have always suspected: the South is really quite boring!
The land is lower set, and thus, less sandy; the views are worse on the south, there are less teasing short-fours on the South, and less good par-3s.

To me there are two standout holes on the South: the par-five 8th with its hogs-backed driving landing zone, and the 17th hole. Actually, only the 2nd half of the 17th hole gets me excited - it is some shot in.

Both courses have a few "nothing" holes, and so taking the best of the rest, it is the North course for me.

The North may even jump ahead of Yarra, Huntingdale, and one or two others - budget depending in the future.

  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Justin_Ryan

Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2002, 03:32:32 AM »
Paul
Having played the South course three times, the 8th is really the only standout hole.  The South also strikes me as a course that has been altered a fair bit over the years, particularly on the front nine, which I would say has most of less inspiring holes, but I could be wrong.  

Mike
Have you got any other courses on the go now Ranfurlie is complete?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

MikeClayton

Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2002, 06:40:22 AM »
Justin

Point Lonsdale members voted last week to go ahead with their new course .They are using part of the origional course and have an option on the land that horseshoes the current course.
The South at Peninsula can be an awful lot better than it currently is.The land is still very good and the routing is fine but their are a couple of very poor holes -no.12 in particular- and not a lot of great bunkering.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Damian

Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2002, 05:41:10 PM »
I'm far from being the straightest of hitters, but at Ranfurlie you really have to hit it very wide to miss the cut fairways. Thats not to say I haven't gone into the long grass a few times!!

The only hole that is remotely narrow off the tee is the 16th but it is the 270m par 4, and it does get quite narrow, especially if you try driver off the tee. If you hit mid iron off the tee, there is still lots of width.

There are only a few places around where the grass is so thick you cannot find your ball. Most places, the grass is long yet wispy, so finding your ball is quite possible. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) the intended effect is to have the long brown wispy grass contrasting with the green fairways etc. and the underlying thick grass is intended over time, to disappear. By way of example, Barwon Heads has longish grass off the fairway, yet your ball is quite easy to find. however, the grass is like wire, and wraps around the hosel like a boa constrictor, making getting out of the grass a far from trivial exercise.

As I said most are happy but you can't please all of the people all the time!!  Theres not much I would change at the moment. It probably helps that I'm a playing quite confidently at the moment; my handicapp has fallen 0.5 of stroke since moving there. There is a possibility that the 2nd and 5th greens with their very large slopes and swales may give some problems (i.e. traffic) due to the relatively few hole locations, especially when they firm up and speed up. Thats not to say I want to change these greens, I think they are fantastic.

There have been the usual complaints about "fairness". People know where the trouble is, then hit it there and then complain about how unfair it is. Admittedly, the knowledge may not be quite there yet on a new course. However, while the strategic elements are subtle they are not totally hidden. I think the quality of Ranfurlie comes out in that even now after playing it several times, I keep seeing new things.  

Anyway, it makes you wonder because things have have not got tough yet, the weather has been quite benign with very little wind since the first weekend the course opened. That weekend was quite windy and the following Wednesday, apparently the ladies nearly got blown away, but for Saturdays, we've had very little wind...

The other main controversy is the lack (??) of distance markers, i.e. trees or posts. Probably disappointing to Mike is that they have in fact placed distance tags on sprinkler heads from about 200m into about 80m from the centre of the green. Believe it or not, people want more than that; there is a proposition to install pop up plastic markers. As it is we've got people walking all over the place looking for sprinkler heads then pacing off (God help us!!). I'll admit to using the distance markers but the accuracy of the pacing is doubtful and my distance control simply is not that good!!!

Anyway, finally managed to par the 5th on Saturday; the intended shot was a raking hook to start over the right hand bunker, trouble is I pulled it a touch, it somehow cleared the left bunker and stopped within about 10 feet of the bunker; up and down from there!!!

Another good hole is the 9th which is similar in topography to the 5th except the trouble in the green complex is on the right and the green is basically flat (certainly in comparison to the 5th!!!). The 9th also runs towards the south but is a bit shorter at about 360m. A unique feature is that the tee shot needs to be fired between two very large River Red Gum trees, the right one being in the middle of a very wide fairway. Much to my chagrin I don't get a shot there but I'm always quite satisfied with a four (not too disappointed with 5 either!!).

The hole location on the 3rd on Saturday was interesting to say the least; tucked up very tight against the left hand bunker which is about 6 feet deep. The 3rd is a downhill par 3 of about 180m from the back tees, although Saturday the markers were well forward (about 160m) The green is angled to the line of play, with the front across to the right and back swung around to the left. The tee shot really requires a draw bu the hole runs towards the west, so such a shape needs to brought back into the prevailing breeze, which is the direction it was blowing on Saturday. Even hitting the green meant 3 was no snack because the hole was set into the side of the hill. A guy in our group left hit his on the green about 25 feet short of the hole; his first putt started a good two feet outside the left side of the hole and finshed about 6 feet to the right!!!

Anyway, I like the course. As far as I'm concerned those that don't can go back to the Park course (the original Amstel course) or go elsewhere.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Walshe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2002, 09:05:20 PM »
Mike,

What changes are in store for Lonsdale?  My understanding is that 1 goes and the 8th green as well.  What other holes either go or are changed?  Hopefully 18 either gets intoduced to a chainsaw or a bulldozer.

Justin,

Like you I'm really pissed to be missing both Ranfurlie and Peninsula, however unlike you I can hit it over a jam tin.  Have you considered a move to the red tees?  Hopefully the good weather in Seattle will hold and I'll get a game in this week as compensation.

Brian
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Justin_Ryan

Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2002, 12:04:49 AM »
Brian
I have always been able to hit it over a jam tin, just not very far past it.  It is just a good thing for me that there seems to be an extremely strong correlation between long hitting and bad putting, particularly amongst amateur golfers, and some might say certainly in your case.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Peter Goss

Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2002, 02:56:34 AM »
I'm sorry also to be unavailable for this weekend. Well done to Chris, Mike and others for organising.
I'm interested in the "feel" of the course - many comments on laudable strategic elements, but does the course have good ambiance (or the potential to do so after tree/vegetation maturity)?
The photos dont help much. Are there many tree plantings? Is it exposed to strong winds?
Damien -you mentioned the course being similar in style to the Dunes - I'd be grateful if you might expand - topography/difficulty/style/ vegetation/use of bunkering /ambiance or some or all?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Andrew Presnell

Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2002, 04:30:23 AM »
Mike without wanting to get too far off the topic I played at Port Fairy yesterday (on a calm day!) and really enjoyed the experience. A fun, uncomplicated course with great land, terrific sea views and cheap green fees. The stretch of holes from 12-16 that run along the beach are very memorable.

The member I played with indicated that you have an ongoing consulting role down there. I was aware that you did the alterations to the Par 3 8th but is there more to come?

I wouldn't have thought massive change was required anywhere but having played the inland Par 5 18th a few times it seems to lack something as a finishing hole by comparison to the holes that precede it?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2002, 04:51:26 AM »
Justin and Brian:
It's great to see that you both hold each other's golf games in such high regard.  Shame you can't share your talents with us on Sunday!

Peter:
I visited Ranfurlie in late January, when construction was almost complete.  

Having not seen it in finished state yet, I wouldn't like to contradict what Damien has said, but a comparison with The Dunes is perhaps a little simplistic.  Yes, it is very open and exposed, but the terrain is more 'rolling' rather than the almost violent topography at the Dunes.  There is unsparing use of the wispy roughs, which look wonderful in contrast to the fairways and greens.  

There are very few trees, and those that are there are well out of play, and mainly singular.  However, on the 9th fairway are a number of big trees (River Red Gums apparantly!) that are on the fairway.  Them remaining untouched was a conditon of the permit.

Full report, as promised, on Sunday evening.  It's going to be a great day.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Justin_Ryan

Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2002, 05:50:52 AM »
Andrew
I'm not surprised you enjoyed your round at Port Fairy, it would have to be about the best value for money, fun golf course in Victoria.  I agree with you that massive change isn't needed, there really isn't much need for minor change as well, with the possible exception of 8,9,17,& 18.  I would hate to see it end up as a dog's breakfast of a golf course, you only have to travel 15 minutes down the road to Warrnambool to see that.  Assuming that PF has no room to expand further into the dunes, I would hope that any changes would be kept to a minimum.

Chris
Brian and myself will share our talents with you at Commonwealth one of these days.  Hopefully Shane g will come as well, because we will need the extra pair of eyes to look for Brian's ball amongst all those trees. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Damian

Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2002, 08:56:12 PM »
The comparison with The Dunes, as Chris suggests, was simplistic; just meant to convey that the course is wide open and it is not meant to be tree lined. Also, the site is quite exposed to the wind and is intended to remain so.

Unlike The Dunes, there are places where you can see almost the entire course, e.g. first green, driving area on the 10th hole, 9th green.

Anyway, have fun Sunday....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Clayton

Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2002, 05:58:12 PM »
I just got back from 3 days at Port Fairy and it really is a fantastic place -both the town and the course.
We put 4 bunkers between 7 and 9 -taking out the falling over tee-tree - and a bunker into the hill on the left of the drive on the 7th.
Andrew
It's true 18 is a little dull simply because it gets away from the sandy land. However the green is very big -too big I think- and if it was better it would really help.
Damien
I hate any visable distance markers because they smack of 'no class' If we have to have them then numbers on sprinklers are ok but I suspect they are of little real benefit to todays yuppie breed of golfer .
Those plastic discs are awful
Brian
Point Lonsdale will have what is basically a whole new course.
The only hole staying close to what is there now is the par 5 next to those two par 4's by the water - the 3rd I think it is.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Shane Gurnett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2002, 01:31:03 AM »
Whats the format for Sunday? Are we having a match of some description?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Shane Gurnett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2002, 01:32:50 AM »
Also, does anyone playing Sunday have a digital camera, so maybe we can post a few snaps on this thread next week?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ranfurlie
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2002, 01:43:29 AM »
Shane,
Not at this stage - maybe a simple stableford comp would suffice.  Perhaps everyone might like to put in 2 dollars etc...so there is something to play for!

If someone has a suggestion for some kind of match, fire away, but I can't think of a method to devise two teams!  

All,
We're playing just after 1pm, and will go off in 2x4, 2x3.  It'll be a great day of golf, and good to put some faces to the names here.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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