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Jim Thornton

Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« on: August 19, 2009, 02:41:26 PM »
I just returned from a long weekend in San Francisco, where I had the great privilege to play SFGC, Olympic Lake, and Cal Club on 3 successive days.  The weather all 3 days was unseasonably good...bright sun, deep blue skies, no fog/marine layer, and a brisk wind.  As a group, these 3 courses would have hold their own against the top 3 courses in any other city in the U.S.  My less than average playing ability (17 index) made Olympic a real grind, although the recent tree clearing has made the course play much firmer than before and gave me more roll than I expected on my tee shots.  Because Olympic plays up against the side of a giant hill, every hole seems to slope either left to right or right to left, requiring the player to constantly try to work the ball in order to hold the narrow fairways.  The green speeds were manageable the day we played (probably around 10), and the rough was very difficult...a shot from the primary rough more often than not required a wedge back to the fairway.  No question that of the 3 courses, Olympic is a bona fide champioship test that's worthy of a U.S. Open.  For someone of my modest ability, however, it's just too hard.  I managed to make 4 pars in my round, but all of them came from getting up and down from off the green and I had more triples than I care to remember.  One more thing on Olympic - the nine hole par 3 Cliffs Course is a hidden gem.  Several of the holes play on the cliffs above the ocean with stunning views.  What a great time to take a handful of clubs and play this little course in the late afternoon...it only took 3 of us only an hour to play 9 holes.

I expected SFGC to be great and it was.  Everything about it is perfect.  Low key atmosphere that's all about golf.  Best locker room in America in my book, which is saying a lot since I'd always given that distinction to Merion.  How can you beat a roaring wood burning fire in the middle of the locker room with a portrait of the great amateur player Harvie Ward hanging above the fireplace.  The clubhouse, both interior and exterior, appear unchanged from decades past.  The golf course is simply magnificent.  The dramatic bunkering really frames the holes and adds strategy to the tee shots and approach shots.  There are beautiful views throughout the course thanks to the reduction of trees.  The recent renovations by Tom Doak really complement the course and seem to be a major improvement over what was there before.  From looking at photos in the locker room, the course has been returned to the original vision of Tillinghast and the new holes are excellent.  They flow seemlessly with the rest of the course.  Words I would use to describe SFGC - classic, timeless, strategic, and majestic.  We played with a former club champion who is obviously a very fine player, and it was great fun seeing how the course is intended to be play.  It was really impressive watching him work the ball off slopes in the fairways and greens to put his ball in the proper position.

The final course was Cal Club, and I must confess that in all my reading about GCA I had never really taken notice of this course.  That all changed when Ran posted his sublime review of the course earlier this year.  The photos of the course really captured my attention, as did the acclaim that Kyle Phillips received for the renovation effort.  Expectations always play a role in how I react to seeing a course for the first time.  I was expecting SFGC and Olympic to be great and they were.  With Cal Club, I really didn't know what to expect and was frankly prepared to be underwhelmed...big mistake.  To say I was completely blown away by Cal Club would be an understatement.  It's a great piece of property with the front nine playing around a giant ridge and the back nine playing across a relatively flat valley area.  The look of the course, especially the bunkers and greens, is immediately brings to mind MacKenize.  Although MacKenzie didn't do the original design, he was brought in at some point in the 20's to do a "course reconstruction" and unfortunately the club doesn't have a historical record of how extensive MacKenzie's work was.  Over time, I understand that the course fell vicitm to tweaks, greens committees, and modern architectural revisions.

I loved absolutely everything about the Cal Club - due to the extensive tree removal, the vistas of the course and surrounding mountains and city are spectacular.  The bunker work is among the best restoration of MacKenzie style bunkering I've ever seen (and I've seen MacKenzie style bunkers at Cypress Point, Pasatiempo, Jockey Club, and New South Wales).  Both the asthetics and strategic value of the bunkers is amazing.  The greens at Cal Club (bent grass - it will be very interesting to see if they can keep the poa out) were the best I've played in a long, long time...VERY firm, wonderful internal contours, and extremely true and consistent.  The fairways (combination of bent and fine fescue) also were VERY firm, with a lot of run out on tee shots.  The roughs are still growing in, but the native fescue (if they can get it to thrive and stay healty) really does a great job of framing the holes.  The thing I like most about the Cal Club course are the greens surrounds.  Every green had shaved areas extending around the greens complexes that allowed for creative recovery shots (i.e., putting the ball, bump and run, pitches, etc.).  In fact, our host told me that the fairways 20 yards short of the greeens are maintained just like greens, with the same top dressing, and aerification treatment.  The areas fronting the greens just blend into the front of the green and play almost exactly like the putting surface, just a bit slower.

The Cal Club has a diverse and varied set of holes - short par 3, check (125 yd 16th), medium par 3, check (180 yd 6th), long par 3, check (200 yard uphill 12th), short par 4, check (325 yd 5th), medium par 4, check (400 yd 9th), long par 4 (445 yd 14th), short par 4, check (510 yd 1st), long par 5, check (560 yd 17th), risk/reward hole, check (405 yd par 4 7th...a great cape hole that dares you to bite off the fairway).  I hit pretty much every club in my bag in the round, unlike Olympic where I seemed to only hit driver, fairway woods, and wedges.  The Cal Club is a very pleasant walk, with the tees and greens located close together.  The atmosphere at Cal Club is the icing on the cake....a great bunch of guys from very diverse walks of life that all love the game.  Laughter flowed throughout the bar when we had a beer after the round, and the place was full of characters.  Our host, a past president and past club champion, was gracious and hospitable, and it was thoroughly enjoyable spending time with him.

So, how would I sum it all up?  Well, a lot of it depends on what you like...some people like strawberry and some like chocolate.  It also depends on your playing ability, and mine is mediocre at best.  With that said, here's what I would say.  If you want to see what a major championship course feels like, go to Olympic.  If you want to experience a classic and know what golf felt like 90 years ago, go to SFGC.  And if you want to know which of the 3 clubs I'd most like to be a member of and which I'd most like to play every day, the answer is surprisingly easy - Cal Club.



Greg Krueger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2009, 02:53:15 PM »
Jim, thanks for the write up, very well done, you had me thinking I was there! Have not played any of the 3 but after reading that, I hope I get a chance someday!!!

Anthony Gray

Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2009, 02:55:36 PM »


  Jim Thornton the Forrest Gump of golf. Congrats Jim, hope to have a ham biscuit with you soon.

   Anthony


Mark Arata

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2009, 02:58:07 PM »
We caught SFGC while they were plugging the fairways and the greens were sanded, but it was a great course, and would love to play it again someday, but I agree with you on Cal Club, I thought it was just outstanding, and a place that you could play over and over again and never be bored. Everything about that course just looks like fun in the pictures, and the pictures didnt disappoint us at all.
New Orleans, proud to swim home...........

Anthony Gray

Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2009, 03:18:21 PM »


  Jim,

  Did you play well or did you have hands of stone? What trifecta do you like better...SF or Monterey?

  Anthony


Jim Thornton

Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2009, 03:33:57 PM »
Anthony-

"Playing Well" is in the eye of the beholder.  On each of the 3 courses, I made a handful of pars and a handful of 7's...such is my lot in the game.  My proudest shot was of the trip was the 18th at Olympic Lake.  Driver off the tee.  3 wood to ten yards short of the green next to the left bunker (that 3 wood pretty much tells you everything you need to know about my length, although in my defense I will say the 2nd shot on 18 plays uphill and we were playing into a stiff wind).  From there, I nipped a lob wedge to a back right pin and it finished 10 inches from the hole for a par.  Great memory.

As to your question of the SF trifecta (SFGC, Olympic, Cal Club) vs. the Monterrey trifecta (I assume you mean Pebble, Cypress, and MPCC.....or would it be Spyglass?).  I haven't played MPCC, but if I rate them based on Pebble, Cypress, and Spyglass, I'd call it a draw between SF and Monterrey.  Just so hard to compare since you get overwhelmed with the scenic ocean beauty in Monterrey and that is missing with the SF courses.  If I did it based solely on the golf courses and took ocean scenery out of the equation (which is impossible to do), I'd probably give the nod to the SF courses.

Jim


Wayne_Freedman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2009, 04:00:53 PM »
There is no one answer to this pleasant debate for San Francisco golfers.

To me, playing Olympic's Lake is like walking 18 holes with someone leaning on you. Despite its place in history, and the burgers, Olympic would not be my top choice. The new changes are too controversial among some members, and there are too many of those members to make the course feel truly exclusive.

California Club is much improved from what was already a grand experience.  Now it's a grand, throroughly updated experience. You'll get down and dirty when walking that place. Kyle's new bunkering is superb. Those bunkers seem almost alive, and perfectly placed. From the clubhouse, to such small details as the flagsticks and rakes, Cal Cliub exudes quality. I love the airplanes, and only moderately mind the neighborhood houses.

SFGC, however, remains my favorite. The attitude is so undersated, and the course is so demanding without being overwhelming. I;m a line of charm guy, and the bunkering plays perfectly to that. The entire experience is like pulling on an old, comfortable, well-tailored sweater.

San Francisco golfers face quite the dilemma.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2009, 04:14:32 PM »
Well done and I tend to agree with what you said. The observation on Olympic Lake is right on. It is a hard and the higher the handicap the harder it gets. Yet I find a wonderful calmness and acceptance of the course by members with 15 and above handicaps. They do know there handicap will travel well.

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2009, 04:35:23 PM »
Jim, nice comments on all three courses. 

What tees did you play at Olympic? 

Also, was the work on #14 at SF Club completed?   The mounding was probably was not in play for you, but maybe for the member in your group.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2009, 04:51:18 PM »
Interesting you would talk about how difficult Olympic is and not CalClub?

CalClub is tough, especially in the wind.  Personally I think its a much more physical course than Olympic.

Nick Asbrock

Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2009, 04:56:54 PM »
Jim,

Any pictures of your golf travels?


Jim Thornton

Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2009, 04:57:17 PM »
Kevin-

At Olympic, I played the white (member) tees, which are about 6200 yds.  The rest of my group played the blue tees (6500 yds).  I'm not one to thump my chest when it comes to deciding which tees to play from.  My drives go about 190-200 yards, and I pick the tees accordingly.  Interesting story, though, about my group deciding on which tees to play at Olympic.  We were standing in the golf shop, and my two buddies were trying to persuade me into playing the blue tees and said "C'mon, the blues are only 6500 yds!!".  The assistant pro looked them dead in the eye and firmly said "Yes, the blues are 6500, but they are the longest 6500 you will ever play."  I made a bet with one of my buddies, who is a 8.2 index, that he couldn't break 90 playing from the blue tees at Olympic.  He scoffed at that notion and gladly took the bet.  Long story short, but he had to make a world-glass up and down from behind the green on the 18th (to a back right pin) for a par to shoot 89.

As to the 14th at SFGC, the work was completed when we played.  Great hole to say the least.  As you surmised, the mounds didn't really come into play for me, but did for the member.  I made a nice up and down for par there.

Jim Thornton

Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2009, 05:05:45 PM »
Joel-

Don't get me wrong...Cal Club has the potential to be very, very tough.  They put in new tees which stretch the course to 7250 yds!!  I played from the white (member) tees, which were about 6300 yds.  The rest of my group played a combination of white and blue for a total yardage of about 6600.  You're right about the wind....the 18th hole was about 400 yds to me from the white tees and the wind was blowing hard against us.  It made the hole feel like about 500 yards.  I hit driver, 5 wood, and 9 iron to the green.

Here's what made Cal Club more enjoyable for me vs. Olympic in terms of playing characteristics.  First, the fairways are much firmer at Cal Club vs. Olympic, so I got more run than usual on my tee ball.  Second, almost every green at Cal Club with the expection of a couple of the par 3's allows you to bounce/roll the ball onto the green from the fairway.  At Olympic, there are several holes where you have to fly the ball onto the green.  Third, Olympic constantly challenges you with side hill, up hill, down hill lies on almost every shot from the fairway whereas Cal Club's fairways have much less slope.  Fourth, the rough at Olympic is far more punishing than Cal Club...there were several times at Olympic where I was forced to just chip out sideways whereas at Cal Club you could usually advance the ball.  Lastly, recovery shots around the greens at Olympic were much more demanding because you almost always played tem from heavy rough vs. the chipping areas at Cal Club.  It's awfully hard to hold the green when pitching out of deep rough to firm greens as is the case with Olympic.

Take it all with a grain of salt, though.  I'm already on record regarding my playing ability.

Jim

Jim Thornton

Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2009, 05:07:25 PM »
Nick-

Unfortunately, no pictures to post.  While I recognize it would add a lot to the description, I almost never take photos while on the golf course, instead choosing to just relish the moment and hopefully commit the images to my memory.  Sorry.

Jim

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2009, 05:09:49 PM »
It's been a very long time since I last played the California Club, but I recall that the long par 4s were mostly downhill and the short par 4s were mostly uphill.  Is that still true?

I'm sure part of the work by Kyle Phillips was cutting back a ton of trees, particularly near the tees.  I recall that it was very possible to catch a limb not far from the tee, which really made some of those holes play long!

Jim Thornton

Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2009, 05:13:53 PM »
Kevin-

More than the 14th at SFGC, of the new holes the one that really struck my fancy was the little par 3 13th, which they've nicknamed "Little Tilly".  Great, great bunkering around the green and the hole looks like it's been there forever.  I'd put it just a hair behind the famous par 3 7th "Duel Hole" as my favorite par 3 at SFGC.  The fact that I had about a 12 foot birdie putt on the 13th probably swayed my opinion, though.

Jim

P.S.  I missed the birdie putt...didn't even touch the hole.

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2009, 05:53:25 PM »
Thanks -- I would imagine that your 12 foot putt was a very difficult one....there aren't many easy putts on that green. 
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2009, 06:12:33 PM »
Kevin-

The assistant pro looked them dead in the eye and firmly said "Yes, the blues are 6500, but they are the longest 6500 you will ever play."

Sea level, damp heavy air, several holes that have slopes that take your ball the opposite direction of the way the hole runs...I'm a fairly long hitter (capable of driving the ball in any number of fun directions) and I've never had so many 5-iron approaches on a 6500 yard course.  After the round I felt like I'd walked 36.

Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2009, 07:52:51 PM »
Thanks for the excellent report. I'm into brunettes, so it's SFGC for me personally.

Having said that, you would hear no great argument from me from folks that prefer Cal Club. I played there a few weeks ago and was blown away; moreso by "what" was done rather than what is there. That's likely a result of having played the old version. After some reflection it's simply a great golf course and I feel Doak rating would range between 7 and 9 from those who are inclined to assign a number. Also, from the rear tees, it's a fairly strict examination; certainly more than SFGC but a bit less than Lakeside.

One question....."the back nine playing across a relatively flat valley area"....at Cal Club. I sure don't see it when walking up and down, that damn hill ;).

Nick Asbrock - send me a PM with your email and I will send some recent photos of both. Posting photos on this site has become counterproductive due to the "new" format.
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2009, 08:05:24 PM »
almost every green at Cal Club with the expection of a couple of the par 3's allows you to bounce/roll the ball onto the green from the fairway. 

This is a very astute observation and should be the exact reverse strategy at Olympic.   The superintendent at Olympic has no idea or concept on this theroy which is ironic since that it how it was designed in 1927.  The super believes in the modern aerial game and severe rough without any options to roll the ball.

Cal Club has an excellent superintendent.  They also have a number of members who understand this as well.  CalClub also made Kyle Phillips a member and since he lives fairly close by, visits fairly often.

Matt_Ward

Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2009, 08:24:52 PM »
Wayne, et al:

Forgive my ignorance -- but can someone outline the major changes made to the Lake Course at Olympic. I understand the angst it caused and wonder how people here feel about them -- prechanges and post new reality.

Agreed on the comments of how just long some of the Bay Area courses can play but wonder how on target Joel's comments are regarding the daily preparation of the Lake Course and if it's really needed. I have played the course away from major events and it can play really slow with turf that is overly moist (beyond any marine layer) and then when it's made to play ultra firm and fast. What a big time difference indeed.

Jim Thornton

Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2009, 08:42:56 PM »
Jon-

After reflecting on it, you're correct that the back nine has a lot of movement in the land.  Overall, it's a great piece of property.

Here's what I keep thinking about when I reflect on Cal Club -  how in the heck has this course stayed below the radar screen?  I never saw the "old" course, but if the newly renovated course isn't in at least the top 25-50 in the U.S., then I'm a monkey's uncle.

Jim


Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2009, 08:44:42 PM »
Forgive my ignorance -- but can someone outline the major changes made to the Lake Course at Olympic.

There are several threads on this in the past few months.

Quote
I understand the angst it caused

What is this "angst" you write about?  Are you basing this on comments on threads here...some from members, most not from members?

Quote
I have played the course away from major events and it can play really slow with turf that is overly moist (beyond any marine layer) and then when it's made to play ultra firm and fast.

Over the last several years the conditions at Olympic have been "firmer and faster" than any of the courses in the adjacent area, SF Club included.  Result of tree management and turf work by Pat Finlen.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Jim Thornton

Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2009, 09:07:48 PM »
Kevin-

I agree that the super at Olympic has the course playing much firmer than it did the last time I played it, which was about 7 years ago.  The significant tree clearing that has been accomplished at Olympic has, in my view, accomplished 3 things - much improved air circulation leading to healthy turf, much firmer playing characteristics (especially in the fairways) due to the reduction in moisture, and opened up great vistas.  I was astonished by the amount of trees that had been eliminated since I was last there - and it was all for the better in my view.

At the risk of sticking my neck out, I'll briefly weigh in on the often discussed and occasionally maligned changes to the 7th and 8th holes.  I thought the new green on 7 was terrific....I hit my approach on to the lower tier and the flag was just over the ridge on the back tier.  It created a tricky putt...hit it too easy and you risk rolling back to the front of the green, hit it too firm and you risk running by the hole.  I three putted thanks to leaving my first putt short and watching it roll back down the slope, and walked off the green wondering how the heck I had just made 5 on a 270 yard par 4.  As to the 8th, it is a perfectly fine par 3 with nice bunkering, and compared to the old 8th hole, I don't have a strong preference one way or the other as to my favorite.  The walk from the 7th green to the 8th tee was a tad long, but not nearly as bad as some have people to believe.

Pat Finlen should be congratulated on the job he has done at Olympic.

Best-

Jim
 

Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Club over SFGC by a nose...
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2009, 09:55:28 PM »
Jon-

After reflecting on it, you're correct that the back nine has a lot of movement in the land.  Overall, it's a great piece of property.

Here's what I keep thinking about when I reflect on Cal Club -  how in the heck has this course stayed below the radar screen?  I never saw the "old" course, but if the newly renovated course isn't in at least the top 25-50 in the U.S., then I'm a monkey's uncle.

Jim


It is a good piece of property. An even better routing by Locke/Phillips.

The "old" course was top 25 in the state in my book. Lower end.

The "new" version is likely between 4 and 8, depending on who's being asked. Keep in mind that this version was unveiled summer 2008, and guest/rater play was not allowed for a period of time. My host discouraged seeing it unti this season to allow the turf to mature. Glad I listened to him.

I think the current version will do very well in any logical rankings. I wouldn't even guess at a number, or any logic, seeing as how GD had Riviera at #60-something a while back.

General belief would be that beard-puller ratings would be far higher than those who have the Oakland Hills of the world so high while they're busy getting lap dances. :P (that's a shout out to my boy Huckaby)
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

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