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Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Killing the Grass and replacing it - Northern grasses
« on: August 18, 2009, 11:11:20 AM »
Hazeltine will be killing all the grass in its fairways and greens and replacing it next year.  The purpose will be to get rid of the Poa on the greens.  Apparently Butler National did the same thing a few years ago.

Does this sort of effort work?  I would think the Poa would creep back in after a few years.


C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Killing the Grass and replacing it - Northern grasses
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2009, 11:17:06 AM »
My guess is that you're correct, poa will creep back.  However, if there are improved ways at preventing poa's creep, I'd think it would be far easier to start with a non-infested base. 

I played Medinah #3 on Sat, they've begun to burn off their fairways too.  I would assume for the same reasons, though I don't know for sure.  They're also redoing their greens, which I believe is the main reason for the entire project.  At Olympia Fields, we resurfaced all the fairways during our South Course project as well.  Paging Mr. Potts?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Killing the Grass and replacing it - Northern grasses
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2009, 01:55:49 PM »
Jason:

Inverness Club in Toledo has done this at least twice so far.  The grass is pure for 4-5 years, then the poa starts coming back ... and it's not the good kind of poa.  However, they keep coming out with new chemical controls to kill poa while not harming the bentgrass, and some superintendents believe that with the latest and greatest stuff they have a chance to keep the turf poa-free for longer now.

Personally, I think it's crazy to close your course and reupholster once every 8-10 years, so I have refrained from joining any club which might choose that approach.


Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Killing the Grass and replacing it - Northern grasses
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2009, 02:40:43 PM »
Jason:

Inverness Club in Toledo has done this at least twice so far.  The grass is pure for 4-5 years, then the poa starts coming back ... and it's not the good kind of poa.  However, they keep coming out with new chemical controls to kill poa while not harming the bentgrass, and some superintendents believe that with the latest and greatest stuff they have a chance to keep the turf poa-free for longer now.

Personally, I think it's crazy to close your course and reupholster once every 8-10 years, so I have refrained from joining any club which might choose that approach.



Thanks Tom.  I will be interested to see how this works. It doesn't exactly mesh with the idea of the game being good for the environment.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Killing the Grass and replacing it - Northern grasses
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2009, 02:46:25 PM »
I visited with the architect and greens superintendent at Army Navy CC in Virginia where they are regrassing their fairways with bermuda and they gassed the greens and are using a strain of bent grass.  The course looks great and the greens are beautiful and smooth but they did not change the green contours so they have to be careful with the green speeds.  Believe it or not but I was out at Sand Hills last year and a couple of greens had some poa in them which tells me that poa is one tough grass to keep out - I am going back this week and I will be curious to see if they god rid of it. 


Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Killing the Grass and replacing it - Northern grasses
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2009, 05:16:28 PM »
Jerry,
Manor CC is planning to put bermuda on the fairways of the short 9-hole course. The idea is to save on water and fertilizer. I'm assuming that the bermuda they and Army-Navy is using is a type that's tolerant of a cold winter or two.

Does anyone know if anything can be done about common bermuda? We've had so many mild winters in a row that the stuff has been expanding everywhere. Are there any techniques or chemicals that can be used to at least slow it down?

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Killing the Grass and replacing it - Northern grasses
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2009, 07:30:16 PM »
From what I've learned at Indian Spring and now at Norbeck, you have to kill it in order to be rid of it or it just keeps spreading.  I have not heard of a chemical treatment to slow it down or to slowly get rid of it as the other grasses take over.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Killing the Grass and replacing it - Northern grasses
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2009, 12:45:20 AM »
My home course did this about 5 years ago to replace the old bent grass greens that had become very poa infested (~50 years old) with A4 bent and the bluegrass fairways and tees were done in A1.  Closed in early September, reopened the following June.

The first summer they kept the greens very dry and they stayed in great shape, but for whatever reason (probably people bitching about not being able to hold the greens) they went back to overwatering the next year so they get pretty marked up, especially in the front 1/3 of the green.

So far I see no evidence of the return of poa, but I'm sure its inevitable especially if they keep them so moist and the ball marks provide some bare soil for the poa to take root.

Overall its been a nice improvement, but its unfortunate that it never looks better than that first week its open when the fairways and greens are so pristine....I guess that's what its like all the time if you belong to one of those super exclusive clubs where only a few groups a day play.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Killing the Grass and replacing it - Northern grasses
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2009, 09:12:12 AM »
Doug: What area are you in - why did they select bluegrass for the fairways? 

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Killing the Grass and replacing it - Northern grasses
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2009, 12:56:01 PM »
We did regrass the fairways on the South Course at Olympia Fields as part of the project.  There were a number of reasons which converged -- first, our DOG, Sam Mackenzie, was in charge of all grassing and did want to start out with as good a strand of bent as possible.   He told us that keeping out poa completely is a losing battle, but if he can keep the poa percentage down, he can water less and maintain a firmer faster surface.  As he told us, "brown bent comes right back up when it rains; brown poa is dead poa."  Second, it would be a major pain keeping the fairways alive during the project, and possibly add to time expense.  Killing the fairways allowed him to worry less about keeping grass alive (and freed up the money to pay for the regrassing) and gave more flexibility in planning out haul roads etc.  In retrospect, I think big chunks of the fairways would have got chewed up pretty good regardless (christ, the machines they brought out to take out trees were enormous).  He also used a new product to kill the grass called Basamid, which apparently worked very well in not only killing the poa, but nailed the seeds as well.  He's also using some velocity, which supposedly can wipe out poa, to limit future poa infestation. 
That was one hellacious beaver.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Killing the Grass and replacing it - Northern grasses
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2009, 01:16:26 PM »
Doug: What area are you in - why did they select bluegrass for the fairways? 

Doug is in Iowa City.  Nearly all courses in the area are bluegrass so it is not nearly the drawback it would be in other places. 

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Killing the Grass and replacing it - Northern grasses
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2009, 12:28:28 AM »
Jerry, the fairways used to be bluegrass (which is what you'll see on 90% of courses in the upper midwest)  When they burned them off they redid them with A1 bent.  That might not have been clear from my posting.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Killing the Grass and replacing it - Northern grasses
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2009, 09:36:40 AM »
   There is a new product called Velocity that is being used to remove Poa annua from fairways.  I think this product in conjunction iwth PGR's and sound cultural practices do give you a fiighting chance at keeping the Poa out.  The product that makes the regrassing possible is Basimid.  This funigant has the ability to kill the Poa and other weed seed bank in the soil. This is key to staying clean as long as possible.  Of course you need to do much work in the rough to keep the Poa as far away as you can.

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Killing the Grass and replacing it - Northern grasses
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2009, 10:26:27 AM »
At Tavistock, we have used Velocity successfully in treating the influx of Poa after our restoration 3 years ago.  There is also a new product in the test phases that treats Poa in the greens.  Velocity is only approved for fairways/tees and has to be used very carefully. Using the right percentage and amount is vital because it can weaken and harm the bent grass if applied in too strong a dose. The new product(name escapes me)has shown through test greens to slowly get rid of the Poa while allowing the Bent to overtake it.  We are using it experimentally on our 9th green.  For some reason, when this greensite was gassed, we didn't get a full kill of the Poa.  It is the only green on the course where there is still some areas of Poa.  So far we have seemed to keep the spread of Poa under control.  The nice part about this product is that it doesn't just leave you with areas of dead Poa in the greens. It allows for a gradual change which most golfers won't even notice.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 10:28:02 AM by JSlonis »

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