News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


TEPaul

Re: Pebble Beach #18 - that damn tree
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2002, 02:36:30 PM »
Let me try to understand Rich's treeless green redesign. I heard a redan concept mentioned earlier. Should I assume this redan concept would be a regular or reverse redan conept?

Redans generally fall from their fronts or openings away to the rear regardless of the side of the opening. That's standard on every MacDonald/Raynor redan I've seen and also includes Tillinghast's famous Somerset Hills's unique green midsection kicker redan.

But William Flynn built a number of excellent redans and redan concept greens that actually go uphill from the front opening to the rear--ex; Huntingdon Valley's #3, Lehigh's reverse redan #3, Philly C.C.'s #7 and Philly C.C reverse redan #15!

So which kind of redan are you looking at to make Pebble's #18 a better hole Rich? Chip Oat has already said something with a left side opening and if he has a redan in mind I'm assuming it would be the Flynn style redan with the back to front fall since right to left is the natural fall of the green-end at Pebble.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Pebble Beach #18 - that damn tree
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2002, 03:08:08 PM »
Tom

I'd prefer to avoid the term "redan" since it has been so bastardized by all this talk of "reverse redans" and "sideways back to front false front redans" and "upside down semi-inverted so's yo' mamma redans" it could really mean any kind of green imaginable by man--although probably not by CB MacDonald..........

My cheerfully naive idea would be a green sloping, as it currently does from right to left, but built up in front a bit and lowered at the back to allow for a front to back slope too.  Kinda like the REAL ***** hole at North Berwick.  I think leaving a little gap to the left, hard by the sea, to allow the truly heroic 3-wood to be cut into the back left Sunday pin position would be good, but I see the main strategic options to be:

1.  If you really need a 3, bomb the driver down the coast line to set up a 200-220 med-long iron that can be flown to the top right front shel and allowed to trickle down to the pin--just like the real *****.
2.  If you want a 4, drive it safely and then:
   a.  bomb a wood right of the green and try to chip to the pin (have some uneven rough over there to add some spice to the shot)
   b.  lay up to the distance which you think gives you the best chance to get it close (this might range from 80 yards for most players to greenside for guys who can hit the slop shot.

I'd also make the front bunker deep enough and difficult enough to make getting up and down anything but a sure thing, and also shave the grass leading up to the bunker to make the flop shots challenging.

Next!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Pebble Beach #18 - that damn tree
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2002, 03:21:16 PM »
shivas

Love the pot bunker idea!  Also, although I was too timid to say it, I WAS thinking of a 5-10 foot drop-off ***** green, just like at NB, and with a possibility of a ball hit too firmly going off into the sea.  With normal PB stimps, that would be one helluva challenging green. 8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Pebble Beach #18 - that damn tree
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2002, 04:01:20 PM »
I love the tree. It makes you think twice about 3 wooding up to the green for with the tree your landing area is only about 10 yards wide. Without the tree it is 25 to 30 wide. Plus it is visually great and makes the hole have drama. the faiway tree is not really in play anymore but I still like it too. It give you something to aim off of and for the shorter hitter or on a wind in your face day something to avoid.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Pebble Beach #18 - that damn tree
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2002, 04:14:37 PM »
The truth be known I don't believe the old tree came into play all that much. Maybe because I don't draw the ball, But to me the green is clearly gonna be more receptive to a fade. But out of the few I've seen struggle with that right side, the tree was struck in fewer than 10% of the times.


 I do agree that any hole that derives it's strategy, just from the placement of a tree, is poor.

 I just don't think this is the case here.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach #18 - that damn tree
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2002, 07:08:14 PM »
I don't think this sloping-redan thing works. At least I don't see it.

Obviously the opening has to be on the left, near the ocean. If the green slopes left, then my well-hit 3-wood or long iron would bounce through the opening and straight left, into the rough or bunker. I would be frustrated, but I would not consider playing a cut out over the ocean - too risky.

If the green slopes right, then it slopes away from the ocean and I just bail out right every time. I wouldn't be a big fan of either option.

The current setup allows a long shot to roll into the green (see Nicklaus), not off of it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach #18 - that damn tree
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2002, 07:20:24 PM »
A_Clay_Man:

No question that the hole has a ton more going for it than trees - it's still a wonderful hole.  But my pet peeve on golf courses is the placement of trees such as the one I'm harping on here.  The history of this pet peeve is too boring to recount here.

Also, since my rope hook forces me to plays safely away from the left side, that tree has come into play for me all 6 times I've played the hole.

Finally, let me suggest the following controversial hypothesis:

Stupid trees that are positioned to block shots/hide pins from fairways are a cheap and uncreative alternative to designing and building an effective green complex that accomplishes the same task as the stupid tree through the exclusive use of angles, dimension, slope and collection areas/other surrounds with the proper maintenance meld.  Trees may look nice, but they're not very hard to design.

Just move the stupid tree 10 yards to the right so it penalizes the BAD right side shot - not the good one.  Let the green complex challenge the "safe" right side shot.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach #18 - that damn tree
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2002, 07:26:59 PM »
Matt_Cohn:

You're absolutely right - the green must be accessable from the left side with a "ground game" shot and more accessable from the left side than the right side from the air, as well.  That is, there must be a reward for the riskier left side play off the tee and/or second shot.

If MacDonald could design (and Raynor could build) greens that would fit that bill, surely more than one of today's architects could do the same.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Pebble Beach #18 - that damn tree
« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2002, 07:50:24 PM »
Wow, you guys are very creative! Right to left redan green on that hole, 10ft elevation change right to left--somehow get a small opening on the left side to slip a 3 wood into (and also to the left of an enormous fronting bunker that's hard to recover form?! My mind is bending trying to imagine how half of all that will tie into that land at the green-end! POT BUNKERS on the fairway for the second shot?! Are there any pot bunkers at Pebble?

You fellows are on steroids and this will absotulely have to be tried somewhere, sometimes. But this is Pebble's 18th and it just might be best to replace that damn tree and just leave things at that!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: Pebble Beach #18 - that damn tree
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2002, 07:59:14 PM »
Miss the lost tree, it made the lay-up more difficult.

Its the tree in the fairway that I don't get. Then again I don't think I've ever like a tree in the centre of a fairway.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach #18 - that damn tree
« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2002, 08:33:58 PM »
Tom Paul:

No, it wouldn't.

Ian Andrew:

Me either
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Pebble Beach #18 - that damn tree
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2002, 08:10:22 AM »
Well, it's a fun discussion to imagine various design and strategic iterations on Pebble's #18! It's all just interchangeable notes (features) anyway.

But basically following a common design principle it would seem prudent and best to feature the coastline (left side of the hole) as the ideal place for the golfer to try to get to to play the hole optimally. So since the coastline follows the entire hole on the left it would seem to make sense that the ideal opening to the green would be on the left, and that then logically the tee shot should be on the left if going in two and also the layup second shot should be well left too.

Having played this hole a few times I really don't remember that staying to the left of this hole all the way along makes all that much different though--probably because the angles are really not much at all. I do remember Woods hitting the green a few years ago (this was before everyone was doing it and before many ever had!) from just in the right fairway collar!

But probably the more meaningful strategies for those not going in two and laying-up for a 3rd shot approach is a clear choice of going well down the left side for a shorter shot in or laying back quite a bit on the right side. But what's the reason for the strategy of laying back quite a bit? Clearly it's to not get too close to that tree greenside right and get behind it with a difficult high trajectory shot and to not start to lose your angle on the green or the pin! Without that tree, there would be very little reason at all not to play the ball as far down the more conservative/less risky right side in two for a completely unencumbered 3rd shot in!

It's a bit of an architectural principle, although most definitely not followed all the time, to not load one side of a hole up with penal or dangerous design features. So a typical hole that followed that principle would have a fairway bunker right, a green opening right to force the player near the bunker for the optimal angle of approach and a bunker left of the green, for instance, for golfers who played more conservatively off the tee to the left to be more challenged on their approach by the greenside bunker left.

This then creates a bit of a "stagger" effect with the design features to be challenged but avoided for optimal angles and strategy. And with the primary hazard on the left and the green opening basically left too, the tree right greenside, at the very least, does create the "stagger" effect with this common design principle.

A redan green and an opening to it on the right and without a tree right would sort of weaken the function and usefulness of the naturally penal left side of the hole, at least in design and strategic theory it would!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Pebble Beach #18 - that damn tree
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2002, 08:23:23 AM »
Au contraire, mon Doyen!

My re-design would make going down the left side the high reward option for both the second or third shots.  Right now the ocean is in play only for the duck-hooker.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Pebble Beach #18 - that damn tree
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2002, 01:42:29 PM »
I feel compelled to say that I don't believe that many go for the green in two. First off, it is uphill to the green and secondly it goes directly west which is usually into the dominate wind.

The landing area from approx.180 to 100 yds is sloped from right to left and is slightly down hill to the edge of the left bunker (140). So a perfect layup, right down the middle, kicks hard left and if is rolling, will flirt with going in the bunker.(trust me) So, being right of center is where we are talking about from 125 in, to just in front of the right greenside bunker. This is 7,8,9 or wedge country for most and with those high lofted clubs the old tree was not in play. Sure a medium traj hook is doomed but maybe the new tree will be of a different branch pattern? 8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back