[JMEvensky]

I understand all of these courses have changed, but I do not think of it as progress; I see it as forced upon us by the equipment companies.  And I'm sick of it.  I think every designer should go out and make his own legacy, and be judged by the standards of great courses before in their original form.

That's a great paragraph.

How would you interpret someone today giving you the Tillinghast/WFW instruction to "build a man-size golf course"?Would length be off the charts?Deeper bunkers?More heavily contoured greens?If you had a clean slate with no direction other than "man sized",for whom would you be designing?

I think I'm trying to ask if there's so much more disparity today between Tour and good amateur players,what would "man sized" look like?

Apologies if you've been asked this question before in some more coherent form.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Prestwick by Old Tom was modified and extended by Charlie Hunter, However a copy of the old & new are attached for anyone interested. The white overlay is the Old Tom course note the long 1st Hole Young Tom got it down in 3 using gutta & hickory equipment in 1870, not bad for nearly a 600 yard hole.

I would hate to see the course again modified in such a way to change it's overall game, but that's just my opinion.

Melvyn

[Doug Wright]

Prestwick would be a great choice, even though it's not the same course they played in 1860.  Some players would drive it OVER the Cardinal today ... maybe that would shock the R & A into agreeing that something has to be done about equipment.

That's pretty funny/sad Tom--I assume some players are doing that. Quiros would just aim for the green. I wonder if they'd also just try to drive over the Alps too while they're at it.

FYI they just held the Senior British Open Amateur Championship at Prestwick earlier this month. The winner was +8 over 54 holes. I think the WIND had something to do with the results, as it would if a major were played there.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian:

I think the 15th at Prestwick is a fascinating hole.  I have no idea what's the best way to play it, and I don't know that anyone else does, either; that's why it would be great fun to see.

Sure, any modern designer could build a hole that's "better" by modern standards than 14 or 15, but I don't know if you or I could design a hole that was as confounding as that one.

I understand all of these courses have changed, but I do not think of it as progress; I see it as forced upon us by the equipment companies.  And I'm sick of it.  I think every designer should go out and make his own legacy, and be judged by the standards of great courses before in their original form.

Just hypothetically ... what if Prestwick had taken that tack and never changed since 1860?  Wouldn't you be even more interested to play THAT course than to see what it could be if I lengthened it?

Tom- Yes I have a lot of interest in the old 12 holer, in fact I have walked it. I was rather hopeful the R & A might try and recreate an anniversary course for 2010, as a 150 year commerative. I think if it was that original then like the old course it should be sacricent, but Prestwick has been tampered with several times, just not so much recently. The 15th is a weird one, I just think its too quirky I suppose, you have pretty much answered the question because ...you cant play it, you are not sure modern good players can play it and neither us can even play with it with our pencil, I take your point though it would be nice to see. I wanted to like it when I first saw it but it was just too narrow and the approach was near blind to a slopey green, maybe the best way to play it is to miss the green long and chip back.. I don't know 'quirk' is quite a difficult thing to be scientific about.
Melvyn- i understand but I am not talking of a carve up, I am talking about removing 2 holes for 2 others, if this had been done in 1950 it would now be normal. James Braid did some alterations to Prestwick, that short 11th is his work, and there was a short hole after 6 toward a point a bit left of the 3rd tee. The 7th (then 8th) was a par 5 hole that hugged the railway I expect.
Doug - Its 380 yards to carry that bugger!
I am a big fan of Prestwick though and a big fan of golf history.

[Doug Wright]

Doug - Its 380 yards to carry that bugger!

Adrian, OK so what's your point... 

BTW what IS the carry to clear the Cardinal?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Doug its about 380 yards to carry the Cardinal from the back tee.

[Doug Wright]

Doug its about 380 yards to carry the Cardinal from the back tee.

So it's 380 to carry the Cardinal and the Alps on 17?

[Chris Kane]

If I ever heard of plans to alter Prestwick, I'd fly to Scotland and lie in front of the bulldozers.

[Tom_Doak]

Chris:

Luckily for you they did it before you were born. 

Adrian:

Is it really 380 to carry the Cardinal on the direct line?  It was only 240 to lay up to the edge of it, and I didn't think it was that far across ... plus you would be cutting the corner over the burn to carry it, wouldn't you?

Doug:

The Alps is only 391 yards to the middle of the green; probably 320ish to fly it over the ridge.  I can't imagine anyone thinking they would be better off to try and get their ball into the fronting bunker than laying back.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tom- I did it quick google measure from where the new back tee is and its 380, I think by going a bit right the burn cuts across at an ever lengthing angle. I expect it probably is 240 from the normal tee to the front of that first bunker, is that the cardinal or is the second one the cardinal, or is the term for the collection?

Whatever it is though it is a long way and I think the 3rd would reasonably hold up to modern play as much as par five holes do anyway, I guess the ones the pro's would eat would be 1, 4, 14, 16, 18. The sea hedrig is one of the most beautiful defences in architecture, no water, no bunkers, no rough.

[Sean_A]

There is a lot of talk about Prestwick, but it has held a major one heck of a load of times.  The course I would like to see used is Rye in high summer.  The obvious reason is that the course is dry and I think we would see some runners.  Plus, it would be fascinating to watch the pros play the par 3s.

Ciao   

[Bill Brightly]

SEan,

I don't buy for one second that "drama" is created by the conditions. Rather, it is part luck of the draw in terms of what "names" are in cotention and part  how well the players perform.

Without Yang playing superbly, yesterday's round is a Tiger Woods victory parade.

But how can you say Yang's play wasn't dramatic? The rescue club he hit over a tree was phenomenal, he risked the chamionship if he hits the tree.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Sean

I live in England, but I find most of the courses here tired, cold, and bereft of warmth or Spirit. That is not to say that I have not enjoyed them. I read your reports with interest, however I do not always have the same generous appreciation for many of them as you.

I voted for Prestwick for the simple reason that it was the birthplace of The Open, yet it has fallen on to barren times, so I feel of all the courses it is the most deserving. Plus Charlie is family too.

My mother lives in Hastings near Rye and I in my early days have spend some considerable time there. Yet it too seems to be heartless IMHO.

Melvyn

[Tim Gavrich]

Yale.

And for selfish reasons, Pawleys Plantation in Pawleys Island, SC.

[Matt_Ward]

Melvyn:

Curious to know your definition of "heartless" when applied to a course -- in this case I believe Rye.

Are you speaking about its sheer demands or other elements?

Thanks ...

Gents:

Although the PGA is set for a return to Baltusrol in the years ahead and no doubt the Lower will be used -- but I would like to see the club use the Upper layout instead of the tedious nature of what the Lower generally provides. The Uppe has been lengthened and has a number of interesting holes that few likely have ever seen.

Kalen:

I agree with you in terms of a mountain time zone location beyond Cherry Hills should be considered. Clearly, a range of layouts have opened in the last 15 years and wherever the Open is played the likelihood of sellouts is very good -- even in a sluggish economy.  In regards to Rock Creek though -- I do believe that a real toughening would need to take place -- likely fairways being bordered by rough heights far longer and denser that what is there now -- to name just one element.

[Peter Ferlicca]

Wolf Run Golf Club

They wouldn't have to do a thing to hold a major here.  The rough is always long and thick and the greens roll at 12 or 13 every time I played their.

[Jason Connor]

For shear entertainment value, I'd choose any crappy 6200 yard muni that had trees tightly lining both sides of the fairways (in the Appalachians where I grew up, that was most courses).

I would not close the course at all before the tournament.  In fact, I'd let the blue collar guys tee off after the last group went off each day.

NBC always has the 'Average Joe' plays the US Open course.  I'd like to see it the other way around -- have the pros come play the shitty munis the rest of us play.

Slow, bumpy greens, chewed up fairways, shallow, packed sand in the traps (if there even is sand, maybe it's just dirt in there) and poor yardages.  And pick a course that has super dense, super tight trees (and I know we all hate that and so do I from an architectural standpoint) to be a bit penal.

Some guys might shoot -40.  And that's ok.  But I think Joe Average would like to see the pros play HIS course.

Plus the regular guys could then go play an 'Open' course for $12 thereafter.

[John_Conley]

Jason, go play Mount Dora Golf Association.  (Not Mt. Dora CC.)  It is 5,700 yards par 70.  They hold a very good event there in October, if you aren't doing anything play.  54 holes.  Since they have 100+ golfers each day they have to move the tees around.  First and last day play around 5,700, but Saturday is at most 5,500 - up 10 yards or more on each hole.  You'll be surprised how high scores are.

[Tim Gavrich]

Kalen:

I agree with you in terms of a mountain time zone location beyond Cherry Hills should be considered. Clearly, a range of layouts have opened in the last 15 years and wherever the Open is played the likelihood of sellouts is very good -- even in a sluggish economy.  In regards to Rock Creek though -- I do believe that a real toughening would need to take place -- likely fairways being bordered by rough heights far longer and denser that what is there now -- to name just one element.

Isn't the Senior PGA going to Colorado GC next year?  Perhaps they're hoping to land the big-boy PGA eventually.  Is it good enough?

I'd just love to see a US Open or PGA or Ryder or Presidents Cup held in my home state of Connecticut, but with all the other venues in the vicinity, it doesn't seem likely.  Besides, the only currently major-ready course I know of (in terms of length and all) in the state is Stanwich, and I believe I heard that the membership has no inclination to hold a major anytime soon.  

[Emil Weber]

For British Open:
RCD! Why has nobody mentioned it yet?

I'd also vote for the quirky links like Cruden Bay or St Enodoc that would make the pros crazy because they would think it's so unfair

For American courses:
Any public, C&C, Doak, Hanse etc course.

[Sean_A]

Sean

I live in England, but I find most of the courses here tired, cold, and bereft of warmth or Spirit. That is not to say that I have not enjoyed them. I read your reports with interest, however I do not always have the same generous appreciation for many of them as you.

I voted for Prestwick for the simple reason that it was the birthplace of The Open, yet it has fallen on to barren times, so I feel of all the courses it is the most deserving. Plus Charlie is family too.

My mother lives in Hastings near Rye and I in my early days have spend some considerable time there. Yet it too seems to be heartless IMHO.

Melvyn

Melvyn

Wow!  I think that post tells me a lot about your POV that I couldn't quite get a grip on previously.  

Ciao

[Melvyn Morrow]

Sean

Can’t comment as do not understand POV. (Point of View - I expect)

However, one must remember we are all different, we came to the game by different paths, I do not say that yours is right or wrong, just different to mine, yet we do share some likes and dislikes.

Life would be boring if we all shared the same interests. We may end up having the same careers, houses, fashion sense, cars etc. Our wives or girlfriends would look alike, in short, our lives would just differ by a whiter shade of pale as the song goes.

I try not to compare courses let alone golfers, as each to his/her own, the same applies to our golf.

Perhaps my approach is different to yours. Perhaps its far more traditional and old fashion in that old ways have been passed down from father to son. My opinions are based upon these lessons and from my own experiences and observations. Example, I love TOC, it has something that always pulls me to her. Your opinion, I understand is not quite the same, but then is that not what I have mentioned above.

The whole experience of most (the important word is MOST) English courses IMHO do not match that of Scotland, Northern or Southern Ireland. There is no feeling of contentment as I feel at say Elie or the joys of Cruden, the wonder of Dornoch, the surprise of Strathpeffer Spa, the enjoyment and experience of RCD, the air of Portrush or just the fun of Cullen. However, they are my feelings which I would not necessary expect others to share.   

How you come to your conclusions is totally down to you nevertheless like me you have the right to air them on this site.

Melvyn

[David Whitmer]

I would like to see the pros play two courses that have never hosted events and, apparently, never will: Los Angeles CC and The Golf Club. I know The Golf Club has in its charter that no "outside" events can ever be held there.

[Doug Ralston]

Obviously, Tobacco Road is a must! And Strantz would hate it too. But with a little tweaking, what fun.

Doug

[JC Jones]

I would hate to see a major at Sand Hills or Pine Valley or any of the great courses for fear of how they would be altered to "accommodate" the tour players.  I haven't played Tobacco Road, and I know that some here love it, but Doug's post is exactly why I say the above.  "With a little tweaking..."  Those are words I fear. 

In addition, its hard enough playing these courses when they aren't on the radar of the average golfer.  To quote my father-in-law: "If Crystal Downs is so great, how come they dont host a tournament or a Major there?" 

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