[jkinney]

Had my annual match from the U. S. Open tees at Shinny last weekend against an English mate from Walton Heath. From back there, the rating and slope are 74.7 and 140 against a par of 70. IMO the rating is correct, but the slope is too low. We played with a WNW wind of about 7-10 knots on a beautiful, sunny day.

Having acquired more length with the driver over the past couple of years, the carries no longer presented a problem, and so I could finally appreciate how sensational a championship course Shinny is from all the way back. WOW !

Everything is right out in front of you as you stand on those tees, and all the trouble acts as exquisite framing for the routing and the shape of the holes. A run of seven straight doubles from holes 4 through 10 (easy to do) meant that my final tally was an even 90  (which wasn't 89 because I thinned a four rescue from 196 yards out on 18 after busting a drive down the middle, leaving me with an impossible-to-get-close lob from left of the left greenside bunker to a hole tucked just behind it with the green falling away, which left me with a 20 footer that I missed). Still, at the end I felt elated at having been able to negotiate the course in its magnificent fullness.

IMO, all decent players with tee shot length should play Shiiny from back on the Open tees if they get the chance. I think Flynn's masterwork is the greatest test of golf there is.

[Chip Gaskins]

JKinney

I too think it is the best course I have played.  I have to admit, I have no idea what Slope and Rating actually means or tells you about a golf course.  I do know it is the best 18 holes I have played.  Flynn, Macdonald, or whoever has a masterpiece worthy of a museum.  Lets call her the Mona Lisa!

Chip

[jkinney]

Chip - Course rating deals with the expected score of a scratch golfer. Slope deals with that of a bogey golfer, but is a more complex calculation. What slope results in is the conversion sheet for turning your GHIN rating into the handicap to be played from certain tees on a certain course. The higher the slope, the more geometrically the number of shots given increases over a player's GHIN rating. My 90 at Shiiny from the Open tees translated to a 12.3 GHIN when posted. All I can say is that I felt that I'd played one hell of a lot better than that ! My GHIN was 10.6 at the time, and I felt I'd beaten it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JKinney,

As an occassional test, under reasonable weather conditions, I'd agree with you.

As a steady diet, I think it would wear you down and erode your confidence.

What were the green speeds when you played ?

Very firm, fast conditions at SHCC aren't necessarily your ally.

[Mike Sweeney]

I played the "Barclay's Championship Course" at Ridgewood CC (NJ) on Friday, which is the 18 hole composite course. I not so politely declined my host invitation to play from the back.  

You have to be nuts to go back to those tees as a regular guy golfer!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I think Ridgewood offers a different challenge from the back tees.

You can get clausterphobic back there.

With all the rain we've had, playing from the backs anywhere might be a mistake.

I did so at one course recently and regretted it.
If I hadn't putted and pitched better than usual, I'd have embarrased myself.

[jkinney]

JKinney,

As an occassional test, under reasonable weather conditions, I'd agree with you.

As a steady diet, I think it would wear you down and erode your confidence.

What were the green speeds when you played ?

Very firm, fast conditions at SHCC aren't necessarily your ally.

Patrick - The greens held shots, with good size piitch marks made routinely. Green speeds weren't more than 10-11  because of the accumulated moisture, even though they were cut low and looked faster. As a steady diet, use of the Open tees with any sense of enjoyment is purely a function of how well one is driving the ball. That day was one of my best driving days ever, and I didn't lose roll due to plugging in the fairways. Were I having trouble with the driver, I'd not go back to the Open tees voluntarily. But from now on I'll gladly go back there when I am striping it. The course sets up so beautifully, it's breathtaking.

[Joel_Stewart]

IMO, all decent players with tee shot length should play Shiiny from back on the Open tees if they get the chance. I think Flynn's masterwork is the greatest test of golf there is.

You should do it once to see how hard it is and then retreat back to normal tees.  Only tour pros should play from there.  Its a perfect example of playing the wrong tees. 

[TEPaul]

"Everything is right out in front of you as you stand on those tees, and all the trouble acts as exquisite framing for the routing and the shape of the holes."

Jkinney:

Everything is largely right out in front of you from the tees at Shinnecock but not completely. It's not right out in front of you (visible) on the 10th tee for sure and if we had our way it would not be on #6 tee either and perhaps to some extent on #5 as well. I would also have to say that the trouble long and left on #11 is not right out in front of you from the tee; essentially it is hidden from view by the topline of one of the most beautiful "skyline" greens I've ever seen! 

[Ronald Montesano]

I had 87 at Pete Dye Golf Club on Friday from the tips.  That included two 8s on par 5s (the dreaded ocho-cincos) that I would expect to par or birdie.  Both were the result of unbelievably bad and distracted tee shots and were out of sorts with the rest of the round.  That's what the tips do to the regular golfer...they force us eventually into a spastic swing of sorts.  With all that, the GHIN number thingy was only 8.8!!  Since my index is currently 3.9, that tells you how tough the course is from back there.  In late June, -15 won the Nationwide event there and Won-Joon Lee had a low 18 of 64 for the tourney.  He ballooned to a 77 on day four.

I personally like playing the tips and respect that others do not and should not.

[TEPaul]

"Only tour pros should play from there.  Its a perfect example of playing the wrong tees."


Joel:

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. While I wouldn't want to make a steady habit of playing from back there, trying it now and again really does or can serve a most interesting purpose. Wayne and I were asked to play from back there with Shinnecock's green chairman simply to see what kinds of strategic possibilities the course and its architecture offers from back there for the shorter hitter.

It was a most interesting day indeed as on a number of par 4s we were often not able to hit the greens in regulation but knowing that very much forces you to use some most interesting and sensible strategies. It was probably a little like how golf was once preceived strategically BEFORE this notion of such things as GIR began to become part of the general mindset amongst golfers.

The fact is Shinnecock's architecture really does allow you to play strategically this way and that was the very point of why we did that with the green chairman that day. What we learned was most interesting and the green chairman said he was very gratified to see it in action!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I wouldn't recommend play from the Open tees if conditions were soft, no matter how nice the day.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

When we did that it was fairly soft. That's just something you adjust your strategies to. The point is you know you're not going to be able to hit some greens in regulation so you simply map out and use alternative strategies designed to play safe. The idea is if you map out sensible strategies some of the time you will pitch or chip and one putt for par.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

When we did that it was fairly soft. That's just something you adjust your strategies to. The point is you know you're not going to be able to hit some greens in regulation so you simply map out and use alternative strategies designed to play safe. The idea is if you map out sensible strategies some of the time you will pitch or chip and one putt for par.

TE,

I don't know how to break this to you, but, I've been doing that all my life 

It's just good course management.

However, increased distance, especially U.S. Open distance usually makes most golfers swing harder in an attempt to offset some of the additional distance, and, when that happens, accuracy is sometimes compromised.  That in turn results in wayward tee shots where the golfer must recover from deep rough or difficult bunkers.

Distance beyond one's comfort zone usually creates an unraveling of the golfer's game.

For those who think it's fun to play from the Open Tees, I'd like to place a decent wager on your round, then let's see how much fun you have as you open your wallet at the end of the round, first to let all those moths out and then pay me with those bills printed in 1944.

One of the problems with golf is that you never know what game you're bringing with you on a given day.

You may hit the ball great on the practice tee only to have one of your worst ball striking days, and vice versus.

I don't recommend the U.S. Open tees for anyone except a very long ball striker or an accomplished Pro

[TEPaul]

"TE,
I don't know how to break this to you, but, I've been doing that all my life.   "


Pat:

For starters, you needn't worry about HOW to break that to me because I've been doing it all my life too!   

Even when I was a pretty good tournament player I became so strategically conservative this way, even being short off the tee, I actually took the 3 wood out of my bag most of my career so I wouldn't even be tempted to get agressive with some long holes! 

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I think that tactically weaving your way around a golf course is one of the joys of the game.

Certain course seem to encourage that practice more than others.

CC of Fairfield offered a good deal of deception from the tee.
All was not as it appeared to be, thus avoiding certain bunkers and features seemed like the prefered strategy.

Yet, once you  saw and understood the entirety of the hole and its component features, you learned that there were other ways to play the hole.

The architect clearly bluffed me out and faked me out as I stood on certain tees.

Navigating a golf course is a talent.

Some people are capable of doing so on their first go around.
Some on their second go around, and some NEVER get it.

I like course that send mixed signals to the eye, when done in a consistant fashion.

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