Quirky Hazeltine (design of 17th at Hazeltine)

[Garland Bayley]

From http://www.golfdigest.com/golfworld/columnists/2009/08/golf_hazeltine_national_whitten_0810?currentPage=2

"But USGA officials told Hazeltine members that if they ever wanted another men's Open, they had to get rid of the awful 17th. (The par-4 17th was a 5-iron off the tee to a hilltop fairway; anything longer left a downhill lie to a green perched over two ponds. The fairway was ridiculously skinny; anything left was into trees, while anything right was down a ravine into a creek.)"

Somehow I think if George or I complained about a skinny fairway with trees left and ravine and creek right, not a few members of this site would chime in with you should get some lessons. Remember, as Geoff S says, don't forget that golf is supposed to be fun.

[Greg Krueger]

My father worked at Hazeltine when the 1970 US Open was played there, that was his favorite hole on the back 9!! I remember him being bummed out when they changed it. I played it when I was a youngster, the fairway was actually very easy to hit due to the saddle type fairway. Balls hit a little left or right would come back into the fairway where you had a wedge into a green that has the most movement of any on the course. When they changed it to the current par 3 the green was not changed, so it is a very tough green for a shot of that distance.

[Garland Bayley]

Any recollections of what your father thought of the course in 1970? Dave Hill obviously didn't like it.

[Jim_Kennedy]

From http://www.golfdigest.com/golfworld/columnists/2009/08/golf_hazeltine_national_whitten_0810?currentPage=2
Somehow I think if George or I complained about a skinny fairway with trees left and ravine and creek right, not a few members of this site would chime in with you should get some lessons.

That wouldn't be ...."not a few members" Garland, it would be only a couple of members.

[Greg Krueger]

Garland, he actually liked the course more in 1970 than all the changes that have occured since. He said he liked all the doglegs including the old par 3 #16 which used to be a 220 yard dogleg left!! It might just be he is stuck in the "good old days"

[Garland Bayley]

From http://www.golfdigest.com/golfworld/columnists/2009/08/golf_hazeltine_national_whitten_0810?currentPage=2
Somehow I think if George or I complained about a skinny fairway with trees left and ravine and creek right, not a few members of this site would chime in with you should get some lessons.

That wouldn't be ...."not a few members" Garland, it would be only a couple of members.

OHHHHHHHHHHH! You mean Ward and Kavanaugh!

[Garland Bayley]

Garland, he actually liked the course more in 1970 than all the changes that have occured since. He said he liked all the doglegs including the old par 3 #16 which used to be a 220 yard dogleg left!! It might just be he is stuck in the "good old days"

Are you telling me it used to be "quirky"?

[Greg Krueger]

Big time quirky!! I think that is what most of the complaining was about but maybe that word wasn't used back then.
Almost every hole has been changed except for #6. Ironically that has been my favorite hole since I was in diapers!

[Garland Bayley]

Dan Jenkins tweet from Hazeltine yesterday.

"I defended Hazeltine in 1970 because the players hated it. Now they love it: soft greens, wide fairways and no rough -- A charmless bore."

[Ken Moum]

I'd be inclined to back Jenkins on that, except for the wide fairways comment.

I was there for several days in 1970, being a student at U of M, and I thought #17 was a cool short hole. In a practice round, Orville Moody asked a 5 iron from his caddy, and a gallery member piped to say, "Trevino hit a driver."

Moody grabbed the driver, piped one down the dead center of the fairway, and said, "The only time I leave the fairway is to answer the telephone."

I was there again for the 1979 Grand Slam of Golf  with Lanny W., David Graham, Fuzzy Z and Hale Irwin. i got to play it the next day.

Then played again in 1983 a few days before the Sr. Open and finally a couple of years ago in a scramble during an outing with a bunch of turf writers.

It's a long, hard golf course that just wears you out. And, I am not a fan of the "new" 16th. Any par four that has water on BOTH sides of the fairway strikes me as unreasonable.

One thing I do love about it, however, is the club ethos. When we there for a Tuesday outing, they initially told us were would have to walk, which thrilled me. Then an unreasonable amount of bitching by the particpants got them to relent.

But outside the pro shop, the members bags for the day were arrayed, and more than half were either Sun Mountain Minis, Titliest Sunday bags, or Ping Moon bags. The members at Hazeltine walk, and they carry their own clubs.

K

[Doug Siebert]

I'd hate to see how bad the old 17th was that they consider the new 16th an improvement.  I think that 16th is the worst hole I've seen on a major championship course for quite some time!  Water on both sides AND a forced carry.....talk about lack of options or strategy!

[Dan Kelly]

From http://www.golfdigest.com/golfworld/columnists/2009/08/golf_hazeltine_national_whitten_0810?currentPage=2

"But USGA officials told Hazeltine members that if they ever wanted another men's Open, they had to get rid of the awful 17th. (The par-4 17th was a 5-iron off the tee to a hilltop fairway; anything longer left a downhill lie to a green perched over two ponds. The fairway was ridiculously skinny; anything left was into trees, while anything right was down a ravine into a creek.)"

The original 17th at Hazeltine was, IMHO, a wonderful, quirky hole. It was one of my favorite holes on the course, which I played often as a young man, and I mourn its loss every time I'm out there -- as I mourn the loss of various other features of the original Hazeltine ... a wild ride, indeed.

I don't believe 17 was ever a five-iron up the hill, for anyone. I attended that 1970 US Open, and I believe most of the players were hitting 2- and 3-iron type shots up to the inverted saddle of a fairway. Yes, it was skinny -- but it fed balls to the center from both the left edge and the right. The hole measured 344 yards, if I remember right. Even the longest hitters weren't hitting 5-irons dramatically uphill to wedge second shots on 344-yard holes, in those days.

Yes, if you missed the saddle, you were in deep trouble, either right or left. During the third round of that Open, Tony Jacklin pulled his tee shot (a long-iron, I believe) into the left woods. He then hit the shot of the championship -- punching a long iron under the trees, running the ball up between the two water hazards onto the green. He made the putt for birdie.

Furthermore: The hole widened after the inverted saddle, and it was not drastically downhill -- so a guy with great confidence in his driver could, in fact, have hit driver on 17, to leave himself a pitch.

The original Hazeltine (R.I.P.) was not perfect, but it did not need to be eviscerated. I wish it hadn't been.

Which is not to say that it is "charmless." It is not. It has a number of charming holes -- notably, for my money,  6, 10 and 14, which still stand out as refreshing breaks from the long, hard holes that surround them.

As did 17.

[Matthew Rose]

Could the old 17th work as a driveable hole today?

[Carl Rogers]

As  a medium length par 3, it seems to be lack any real definition, the front and left bunkers are not necessary, the 2 ponds are too small and too shallow or the green is too high above the level of the water.  It seems that Mr. Jones did not have a sense of what he was trying to accomplish with the hole.  The thick rough is a set-up gimmick. .... IMO

[Dan Kelly]

Could the old 17th work as a driveable hole today?

No. Can't imagine that too many players, even at PGA Championship level, would challenge a 345-yard hole with two ponds in front.