[DMoriarty]

If you insist.  But does not increasing the amount of tools in the tool box allow for the player to take advantage of more options?

One would think so, but the reality is that oftentimes the opposite happens.  Generally, in this day and age, the better golfers become the more one dimensional they become.  And the more they are sure that courses should conform to their games, and not the opposite.

Besides one not be able to hit the shot to appreciate that it exists for those who can.  In fact sometimes not being able to hit the shot pounds home the architectural point.

How can one hit a Biarritz shot if they do not practice it?

First, I am not sure there is such a thing as a Biarritz shot.   Rather there ought to be many different Biarritz shots depending upon the golfer and the conditions and the circumstances. 

Second, golf is supposed to be an adventure, not something for which one has repeatedly rehearsed for every conceivable circumstance.   

Third, one can figure it out as one goes.

[Kyle Harris]

David,

It's that figuring out that I'm talking about.

Each round is practice...

[Kenny Baer]

I have played that hole by
1. Hitting a 260-280+ yard drive
2. Hitting an 80 yd Lob Wedge
3. Hitting a 230-250 yd 3 wood
4. Chipping up from 20 yds short of the green and making par.

Any hole that after a well struck drive ask you to then hit a 70-100 yd lay up that leaves you 250 yds out is just poorly designed.

The only thing I didn't like about 14 (only played it once) was that they had both the fairway bunkers built into the hillside to guard the second shot landing area AND the tree(s).  If you take the trees out, I like how they try to make you hit a hero shot of 180-200 yards uphill off a downhill lie if you want to challenge the bunkers.  If you don't want that shot, just lay up further to the left and leave yourself a longer 3rd. 

The tee shot and the green site were fine by me. 

I agree with your assesment but the problem is that the shot to the left is also very difficult and must carry close to the same distance you need to carry the bunkers; also it is off of a severe side hill down hill lie and needs to be hit with a long iron or fairway wood to leave you anything other than another long iron fairway wood approach to the green.  I think the green is fine.

I love Cusco; I can't say enough good things about it...but I can not understand that 14th hole.  If they filled in the fairway bunkers and removed the tree then the hole would be fine, maybe even good.  As of now there is no option for your 2nd shot unless you hit a 300+ yard drive.

[Link Walsh]

Kenny,

Fair enough.  How about they keep one bunker and shave down that right side of hill a little?  I'm with you on the trees. 

Hey, by the way, have you played the UGA course since they redid it?  I played it this summer and thought it was real nice... except for this one par 5 on the back that I had to hit driver, wedge, 8 iron to get to the green over the water.     

[Carl Nichols]

I have played that hole by
1. Hitting a 260-280+ yard drive
2. Hitting an 80 yd Lob Wedge
3. Hitting a 230-250 yd 3 wood
4. Chipping up from 20 yds short of the green and making par.

Any hole that after a well struck drive ask you to then hit a 70-100 yd lay up that leaves you 250 yds out is just poorly designed.

The only thing I didn't like about 14 (only played it once) was that they had both the fairway bunkers built into the hillside to guard the second shot landing area AND the tree(s).  If you take the trees out, I like how they try to make you hit a hero shot of 180-200 yards uphill off a downhill lie if you want to challenge the bunkers.  If you don't want that shot, just lay up further to the left and leave yourself a longer 3rd. 

The tee shot and the green site were fine by me. 

I agree with your assesment but the problem is that the shot to the left is also very difficult and must carry close to the same distance you need to carry the bunkers; also it is off of a severe side hill down hill lie and needs to be hit with a long iron or fairway wood to leave you anything other than another long iron fairway wood approach to the green.  I think the green is fine.

I love Cusco; I can't say enough good things about it...but I can not understand that 14th hole.  If they filled in the fairway bunkers and removed the tree then the hole would be fine, maybe even good.  As of now there is no option for your 2nd shot unless you hit a 300+ yard drive.

But it's really not that hard to hit a 300+ yard drive on this hole:  the fairways are generally quite firm, and the landing zone slopes pretty severely away from the tee and from right to left.  So a decent drive with the right ball flight (a draw/hook off the high part of the fairway) can easily go 300+.  Sure it requires some precision to get in the speed spot, but I would think that's something *positive* about the hole. 

PS:  Even after a drive that hangs up on the right side of the fairway you can carry it to the left of the bunkers with a long iron, leaving a long or mid-iron approach, depending on where you end up exactly.  I know -- I did exactly this the 2nd time I played Cusco.     

[BCrosby]

More esoteric explanations that such imperfections somehow evoke nature or are charmingly discordant seem to me nothing more than, well....esoteric. 

You're right, Bob. I think W&S were referring to the devolution of all human faculties after the Fall, and specifically to the coarsening of our tastes and aesthetic and most of all to the deadening of our imaginations, shaped not by the ever-new mysteries of the sacred but by the worn-out conceits of the profane. The sophisticates swimming in their ennui, the elites looking for the one thing that money could not buy.

Peter

Peter - Exactly.    Bob

[Bill_McBride]

I'll throw two (2) for starters -- the cliosing hole at Bethpage Black -- just needs an entirely different presentation. It's not an indifferent hole -- just a bad one that should be much better given what comes before it.

The 17th at RCD -- have no idea about why a pond is there. Of the closing three holes at RCD this one sticks out like a sore thumb for me.

Maybe I'm confusing RCD with another course, but I think I saw them talking about this hole one year on the Senior British Open.  They said the water hazard is a natural spring.  It does seem to be an awkward looking tee shot though, doesn't it? 

Link, it's over 300 yards to that pond, maybe 320 from the tips.  From the "layup" area in front of the pond - for the longest hitters - it's only about 160 to the green.  The pond definitely looks out of place but it's natural and don't think it will go away.

[TEPaul]

"I think W&S were referring to the devolution of all human faculties after the Fall, and specifically to the coarsening of our tastes and aesthetic and most of all to the deadening of our imaginations, shaped not by the ever-new mysteries of the sacred but by the worn-out conceits of the profane. The sophisticates swimming in their ennui, the elites looking for the one thing that money could not buy."


PeterP:

My Goodness Gracious, that is quite a paragraph. You are now the official GCA Top Philosopher as a result of that paragraph!!

May I ask, however, what exactly is "The Fall" you refer to? Is that when Eve ate that apple when told by God not to and from there things just started devolving downhill for Man or is "The Fall" you refer to something like Tilly or Charlie B. falling off their shooting stick and semi-scrambling their brains when out there waving their arms on a site with a flask in one hand?

[Harwell Palmer]

If I had to pick a worst hole at Augusta National, I would go with #7.

[Kenny Baer]

Kenny,

Fair enough.  How about they keep one bunker and shave down that right side of hill a little?  I'm with you on the trees. 

Hey, by the way, have you played the UGA course since they redid it?  I played it this summer and thought it was real nice... except for this one par 5 on the back that I had to hit driver, wedge, 8 iron to get to the green over the water.     

That would be fine as well; it is just too severe; it was like they designed the hole and forgot about the 2nd shot.
I have played the UGA course a couple of times since the redo; I really like it, very much improved IMO.  The greens are wild and pretty fun. 
I am not a fan of the par 5 on the back either but IMO it is still better than 14 at Cusco.

[Kenny Baer]

Another hole would be #18 at Hawks Ridge; I would not say HR is a great course by any means but it is still a better golf course than the 18th hole. 

It was like Cupp built the tee and the green and then went home and realized "Holy S&*t" I forgot the fairway.  Then instead of changing the tee and green he just squashed a fairway in there somehow.

[Peter Pallotta]

Bob, TE - thank you for understanding. I saw a need for some esoteric philosophy on a thread about "the worst holes on great courses" and tried, in some small way, to address that need. And actually, TE, I think that while humankind lost its grace after the first Fall (the big one), men like Tille and Charlie B got it right back after the second (because of the flasks...).

Btw, here's an interesting bit of trivia - the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous was a patient of Carl Jung's, and took much of what he learned/experienced with Jung as the foundation of his AA plan.  Apparently, he recognized that a longing for spirits was the longing for Spirit. 

Okay - I'm done now. I think the 7th at Augusta sucks! 

Pete

[Mark Pritchett]

Harwell and Peter,

Do you think #7 at ANGC is a bad hole as it plays in its current form or do you think it has always been a bad hole? 

Also, welcome to the Discussion Group Harwell!

Mark

[Bill_McBride]

If I had to pick a worst hole at Augusta National, I would go with #7.

Harwell, welcome to GCA.com, thanks for expressing an opinion!

Would that be the old 355 yard #7 with the green suited to a short par 4, or the new 455 yard #7 with the green suited to a short par 4?

[Peter Pallotta]

Ha, ha - good one, Bill.

Mark - I was mostly just joshing around, but for me it is a bit of a shame that on a course with such -- for lack of better words -- scale and grandeur, that hole should feel so cramped and petty.

Peter

[Bill_McBride]

Ha, ha - good one, Bill.

Mark - I was mostly just joshing around, but for me it is a bit of a shame that on a course with such -- for lack of better words -- scale and grandeur, that hole should feel so cramped and petty.

Peter

I see my post crossed with Mark's.  Great minds etc etc.  That tight corridor was fine when the pros were hitting long irons off the tee, or gambling with the driver, but when they have to belt a driver or spoon, it's way too tight.

Good thing they are so good they can still par this hole.   455 yards today, let's see.  315 yard drive, 140 PW.  Right, it's a short par 4 again!   

[Thad Layton]

#18 Cypress Point.

[John Mayhugh]

Just an out of the box thought….

I was watching a series about how to design a rollercoaster with my teenage son. The designer talked about how a rollercoaster is designed to maximize the thrill for the rider. He explained that the rollercoaster could not be a continuous set of thrills - because the rider might get disorientated – but also because the sensations would all blend in together and the sum would become less than the parts. He felt that one of the keys to creating a great rollercoaster was providing enough time to release some of the tension between the big events so that the rider would get the maximum thrill out of each event.

Don’t come of these holes offer us a rest or reprise from a series of outstanding holes. I find often that a simple hole makes the perfect set up for an incredible breathtaking run. The contrast often makes the next hole even more stunning by comparison.

It begs the question on whether some of these holes are actual ideal within their context rather than a weak point on the great course. Are they there to set the stage in a far bigger picture than we care to see?

Restraint can be as important as creativity depending on the context.

Thanks for posting this, Ian!

Using that train of thought, the worst holes would be those that don't fit and interrupt the flow.  That's why Tim Bert's nomination of the fifth at Whistling Straits makes the most sense to me.  It just doesn't seem to belong and is my strongest memory of what is supposedly a top modern course.

[Tim Leahy]

Anybody else dislike the 18th at Pasatiempo? I don't like finishing with a par three. That green would have been a good finish to a short par 4. Move the par three back somewhere.

10 at Augusta is my least favorite. Seems out of place with that big fairway bunker that I have never seen anyone hit out of.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Anybody else dislike the 18th at Pasatiempo? I don't like finishing with a par three. That green would have been a good finish to a short par 4. Move the par three back somewhere.

I'd go with #7 or #6 at Pasa and wouldn't even think of #18 for this thread.  The property feels narrow over there and #6 has always just felt "blah" to me.

[JESII]

Ian

Tolstoi: "Her pretty little upper lip, on which a delicate dark down was just perceptible, was too short for her teeth, but it lifted all the more sweetly, and was especially charming when she occasionally drew it down to meet the lower lip. As is always the case with a thoroughly attractive woman, her defect -- the shortness of her upper lip and her half-open mouth -- seemed to be her own special and peculiar form of beauty."

Wethered & Simpson: "We must count on at least one very indifferent hole in a round; to be quite on the safe side, we will allow an additional half of indifference as well, for the sake of extra relief.  The course we think of should be noble in spite of its defects, as perfection throughout would be a monument of chilly precision incapable of inspiring us or of stimulating our jaded imagination."

Curious to hear what people think W&S were getting at in that phrase, "of stimulating our jaded imagination"?  Why is imperfection necessary for this to occur? Is the concept a crucial ingredient of great or at least "ideal" courses, and if so, why?

Mark

Because it takes the focus away from nitpicking the remainder of the course...

[David Kelly]

Anybody else dislike the 18th at Pasatiempo? I don't like finishing with a par three. That green would have been a good finish to a short par 4. Move the par three back somewhere.

Then don't finish with it.  Play 17 and then walk in.  Just don't mess with the hole.

[John Mayhugh]

Anybody else dislike the 18th at Pasatiempo? I don't like finishing with a par three. That green would have been a good finish to a short par 4. Move the par three back somewhere.

Do you really think the 18th is a bad hole (topic of the thread) or just don't like the position?

I think it is a pretty solid hole.  I look forward to seeing it at the end of the round.

[Tim Bert]

Agree with the others on Pasatiempo #18.  I think it is a really cool finisher.  Would I want every course to end with a par 3?  No, but I don't mind it once in a while for some variety and it really works here.  For me #7 or #17 stand out as less interesting holes.  #18 is a good one, and that's coming from someone who walked away with a 7 on the hole the first time around.

[Kalen Braley]

Agree with the others on Pasatiempo #18.  I think it is a really cool finisher.  Would I want every course to end with a par 3?  No, but I don't mind it once in a while for some variety and it really works here.  For me #7 or #17 stand out as less interesting holes.  #18 is a good one, and that's coming from someone who walked away with a 7 on the hole the first time around.

I can top that Tim,

I walked away with an X on the card and still loved it.

Yours truly,

The Sandman

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