[Niall C]

I've just caught up with this thread so I am going to skip over the trading of insults, comparing of business models/greenkeeping costs/grass types etc. and get straight down to talking about what playing on and to big greens is going to mean.

In my gang of golfing chums, I'm known as having handy short game and being a pretty mean putter. Mind you they also say that the way the rest of my game is I need to be which is the point I'm coming to.

With the quality of my approach shots being what they are I'm going to have an awful lot of long putts if I ever get to play OM. This brings to mind the occasion when I played TOC and left myself with a 100 foot putt on one the double greens and desperately wanted to take a 7 iron and bump it along the ground. Being a good Scottish boy who was well brought up I couldn't very well do that on the Old Course of all places or my family would have disowned me. Its just how I was brought up, playing wedge/ 7 iron on the green, no chance. I've got to ask therefore, by making the greens so big, are you not reducing the options for a well behaved golfer like me ? Yes you can putt from off the greens on links which I understand OM and the other Bandon courses are set to play like, but at least you have the choice if your off the green to play it a different way.

The second question I have with the big greens. Assuming the pin location isn't edge of green (if so why have big greens ?) how are you going to defend the pin ? Is it by green contours ? Will the contours be readable from say 150 yards out ? Just what kind of challenge is the golfer going to be given ?

I'd be very interested to hear Tom D's thoughts, or Jims or Georges for that matter.

Niall

[John Moore II]

John, I'll take the under at 5...

Oh really? So groups of average golfers, no gimmes. And you really think 5 people could get around without a 3 putt? I say no chance, if we actually were to have everyone putt out, even the 1 inch putts (just ask Hale Irwin about missing those). Now with gimmes and all that, yeah, I'd take under as well, but make everyone putt out, no way.
Really, just given the size of the greens, I still take 5 or more. In many cases here, shots that used to be chips or pitches are now putts, that causes problems. Oh yeah, no less than 5 people per day will legitimately be able to say they went around without a 3 putt.

[Jud_T]

Niall,

The chip vs. putt question is a bit simplistic in OM's case...I found, for me at least, that the tightness of the lies around the greens at PD, and therefore likely at OM, made chipping in the traditional sense very difficult from the green surrounds with any kind of lofted club.  Your best bet is to "chip" with a rescue club or putter, something you can do on the greens as well.  Hence the "blurred line" between fairway and green. Which leads directly back to the question of how much different can the maintenance of the two surfaces really be if the firmness, speed and even visual differentiation is next to nil...

[Jud_T]

John, the under means i think less than 5 can legitimately get around without 3-putting.  I'm with you...

[Niall C]

Jud

I'm assuming that the greens will have some interesting contours, for that read big contours, in part. If the biggest part of the contour is nearest the ball the best option might be to wedge it over it and let the ball run out. The point is unless you don't give a toss about taking a divot out of a green or are can play a wedge shot where you absolutely guarantee that you won't mark the green then you only have one option which is to play the the ground game. Whether you use a putter or 5 wood Tiger style matters not a jot you have fewer options.

To anyone who has played the course, how are the greens defended, or rather how are the hole locations defended ? Is there a lot of big contours ?

Niall   

[Tom Jefferson]

Niall;
They are defended by wind, large contours, angle of attack, steep banks/elevated greens, and subtleties of contours on relatively flat areas of the greens.
In my play on all the greens of the resort, and now including Old Mac, I have learned to most always putt when I have the chance, from within 30 or so yards of the greens.  I do bump and run sometimes, but never play off the uber-tight turf with a wedge, as the risk of a mishit is high.
Tom

[John Moore II]

John, the under means i think less than 5 can legitimately get around without 3-putting.  I'm with you...

I get what you are saying now. I was saying over meaning that at least 5 would have a legit 3 putt in a day.

[Tom_Doak]

How many people a day play The Old Course at St. Andrews or Augusta without a three-putt?

Heck, I'll bet less than five TOUR PROS a day manage that.

Niall:

You are welcome to take out a wedge on any green at Old Macdonald that you want.  But I can't think of a single place where it would conceivably help your score, unless you are a very good wedge player and a truly rotten putter.

[Niall C]

How many people a day play The Old Course at St. Andrews or Augusta without a three-putt?

Heck, I'll bet less than five TOUR PROS a day manage that.

Niall:

You are welcome to take out a wedge on any green at Old Macdonald that you want.  But I can't think of a single place where it would conceivably help your score, unless you are a very good wedge player and a truly rotten putter.

Tom

Thank you for that very kind offer but I don't think I could live with the guilt !!

Niall

ps the time I played TOC I only had one three putt and that was the one from hundred feet. I still wish I could have used my 7 iron.

[Tom_Doak]

Niall:

Where, exactly, on The Old Course did you wish you could use your 7-iron instead of your putter while on the green?  I am just trying to get a sense of what you're talking about.

To whomever it was who asked earlier:

The greens at Old Macdonald are all "big", but there is also a variety of big, bigger and giant.  I would guess the smallest ones are around 7000 sf, with the largest pushing 20,000 sf.  The hardest green to hit in regulation would almost certainly be #10 -- it's possibly the smallest green, it's sharply elevated at the front, and you play it in a tailwind.  Or perhaps the Redan, downwind.  Really on both of those greens it is scary to even TRY to hit them; if trying to post a low score, I'd be happy laying up to the front in both cases.

[Rick Shefchik]

Niall:

You are welcome to take out a wedge on any green at Old Macdonald that you want.  But I can't think of a single place where it would conceivably help your score, unless you are a very good wedge player and a truly rotten putter.

That's very good news -- for any new course. I find it very aggravating to be on a green that forces you to either putt through or chip over rough to get to the hole. I will usually chip in a situation like that, despite knowing that the greenskeeper would prefer I didn't. But it isn't his fault, or mine...

By the way, Furyk had to chip from the lower tier to a back right hole location yesterday at Harding Park. I wonder if that's an original Willie Watson green, or if it was reshaped in the makeover. I have my suspicions...

[Tom_Doak]

Rick:

I have only hit a wedge off the green of one hole in my life:  the seventh at Crystal Downs.  Usually that green allows you to putt around the bunker which intrudes, but if you get your ball just short of the bunker and the hole's in the back, the putt won't get you within twenty feet, and when your opponent is back there in two you just have to try it.  I've pulled it off a couple of times and it  is one of the most memorable shots I've ever played, so I can't rule out a shot like that entirely ... but I try to design greens where it will not be necessary.

[Todd Bell]

If one has the option to use a wedge on the green for a better result, wouldn't that area most likely be unpinnable (my new word) anyways?

If one must use a divot bottle to repair damage, the putter should be mandatory. 

[Scott Weersing]

Rick:

I have only hit a wedge off the green of one hole in my life:  the seventh at Crystal Downs.  Usually that green allows you to putt around the bunker which intrudes, but if you get your ball just short of the bunker and the hole's in the back, the putt won't get you within twenty feet, and when your opponent is back there in two you just have to try it.  I've pulled it off a couple of times and it  is one of the most memorable shots I've ever played, so I can't rule out a shot like that entirely ... but I try to design greens where it will not be necessary.

Did you play all 18 at Old Macdonald today? What surprised you today? What surprised your client?

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