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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the land elevate the golf course? Or does the golf course elevate the l
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2009, 10:38:46 AM »
Quote from: Jud Tigerman on October 12, 2009, 10:35:27 AM
TomD,

I want a middling piece of land AND a middling architect.  Why, you ask?  1) So I can be really sleazy and cheap in the development and profit at others expense. 2) So I can impose my will and ego on the architect more easily 3) Because I'm a rich guys who thinks because he has money and a 15 hdcp. know something about GCA  4)  I can take credit for the press that my PR people create and last but not least so that 4) I can blame the middling architect when it ultimately fails...   8)

Just pick one....the woods are full of them from the last 20 years...and some really good deals.... ;D ;D
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"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the land elevate the golf course? Or does the golf course elevate the land?
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2009, 01:43:11 PM »
Jud. From your description of PB I assume you identify great courses by how many great holes it has? Simply checking off the pluses for good to great and marking minuses for the holes that don't stack up? How many holes can stack up against the best holes at PB? What was your impression of Merion?
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Does the land elevate the golf course? Or does the golf course elevate the land?
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2009, 01:58:35 PM »
Jud:

That sounds like the model in China, or at least up until very recently.
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Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the land elevate the golf course? Or does the golf course elevate the land?
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2009, 09:37:20 PM »
Adam, I have yet to play Merion, hoping to sneak out after PV next spring, and I will be surprised if its not right up my alley.  As for pebble, I'm done knocking it here. Its akin to saying god doesn't exist.  And I admit that having played it only once I can't have complete conviction in my opinion.  But is saying that maybe it should be rated in the top 20 in the world as opposed to top 5 really heresy?  Apparently. I just think the wkole course should hang together, not just be an excercise in "wait till we get to the top of the hill on 6!"
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the land elevate the golf course? Or does the golf course elevate the l New
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2009, 09:58:51 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on October 12, 2009, 10:12:14 AM
How many architects would have built the eighth hole at Pebble exactly as it is today?  Not very many, I think.  Most would likely have put a tee at the edge of the precipice and played further down the coast.

But I have to say I don't understand the framing of the question.  Is the question:  Would you rather have a great piece of land and a middling architect, or a middling piece of land and a great architect?  Because that's a silly question.  Anybody that had a great piece of land and only hired a middling architect would be out of his mind.



It seems many people are confused by my original question, which is, of course, my fault.  My basic question is: can you judge a golf course and its architecture independently from the land it sits on?

To me, the concept that a course would be worse if it were "stripped of its surroundings" does not make sense.  A routing in a setting such as Pebble Beach or Fishers Island is going to center on the views and cliff top holes.

Mr. Doak,

Just out of curiousity, how would you have built the Eighth at Pebble Beach differently today?.  I extend the question to any other architects out there.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 10:01:08 PM by JNC_Lyon »
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"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas
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