[Kevin Pallier]

Am enjoying the discussions on this thread - does AGC have any "really good" short P4's ? what are it's P5's like ? Most of you have highlighted it's length re: long P4's.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Am enjoying the discussions on this thread - does AGC have any "really good" short P4's ? what are it's P5's like ? Most of you have highlighted it's length re: long P4's.

Kevin, Aronimink has two par 5's... #9 and #16 the latter is definitely reachable for good players (sadly, not me anymore).  The former is long, uphill and can certainly be reached in two, but will take two mighty swats with a round-headed club more most of us.  Although, I did hear a rumor that a PGA pro gave the new AT&T yardage of 605 a trial run this summer and was miffed that he couldn't get home in two... although I think he did the next time he tried it.

As for short par 4's, there aren't any less than 340 (from the regular member tees) with the 13th being the shortest... 3W - Wedge for most.  However as mentioned above there are others:

2 – 372,  Dogleg left. 
6 – 381.  dogleg right.  Uphill and blind approach
7 – 376.  dogleg right. Downhill approach to well bunkered green. 
11 – 388.  straight away to the most intense green on the course. 

Here’s a course tour from the website: https://aronimink.memberstatements.com/tour/tours.cfm?tourid=57571

Are they “really good”… maybe not in the sense of Merion’s #7 or #11.  or Olympic’s #7 or Riviera’s #10 or Crysta Down’s #7.  But they – especially #7 and #11 (with its green) – are in the next group for sure.

[Bill Brightly]

MIke,

If you "fondly" remember the first green at Plainfield, I know that you kept your ball below the pin It is great opener, and you need to come out of the box well.

The par 5 12th may be my favorite par in the world, and when you couple that with the cross bunkered par 5 16th, I think they are the best two par 5's on the same nine holes.

[mike_malone]

 As I come back to this topic after another spin around a Flynn course I think  of Flynn's preference to use the slant of the hills versus Ross's preference to go up and down the hill. This leads to more challenging lies throughout the hole,imo. This is all about bias. I just prefer the choices Flynn makes with the land over Ross.

[Dan Herrmann]

Aronimink is a manly course which as I understand it was the intent of Ross and the membership.  If it was located anywhere else in the country (MET excepted), it would receive even more praise than it does. 

I don't know about "manly", because my wife Laura can't stop telling me how much she loved playing Aronimink last year.  What she loved is that there weren't any gimmicks or long forced carries.

[Bill Brightly]

I don't know about "manly", because my wife Laura can't stop telling me how much she loved playing Aronimink last year.  What she loved is that there weren't any gimmicks or long forced carries.


[/quote]

Apparantly Dan's wife hits a 4 iron better than Mike Malone 

[John Gosselin]

MIke,

If you "fondly" remember the first green at Plainfield, I know that you kept your ball below the pin It is great opener, and you need to come out of the box well.

The par 5 12th may be my favorite par in the world, and when you couple that with the cross bunkered par 5 16th, I think they are the best two par 5's on the same nine holes.

The 12th hole at Plainfield gets a lot of praise and I think deservingly so, but does Ross get the credit? How good were not only the lost holes at Plainfield, but the original par 4 and par 3 that now make up the 12th?

[Dave_Miller]

Rory,

     WFW was also billed as a "manly" course. I guess I like "girly" courses !

Mayday - Does that make you a Girly-Man
Dave

[mike_malone]

   Flynn wrote that he preferred the land to be the challenge for playing from tee to green. When that was lacking he advocated bunkers. Thankfully he did not suggest trees or water. So, I can appreciate AGC's need to use bunkering on the course. The problem is that their placement  affect players somewhat randomly. I have always thought that rough works well as a hazard. I checked out the fescue left of #2 at AGC and can understand why this kind of penalty provokes hatred among players.

  If we could come up with ankle high wispy  fescue I believe it is the best alternative for parkland courses not blessed with the best terrain.

[Sean_A]

   Flynn wrote that he preferred the land to be the challenge for playing from tee to green. When that was lacking he advocated bunkers. Thankfully he did not suggest trees or water. So, I can appreciate AGC's need to use bunkering on the course. The problem is that their placement  affect players somewhat randomly. I have always thought that rough works well as a hazard. I checked out the fescue left of #2 at AGC and can understand why this kind of penalty provokes hatred among players.

  If we could come up with ankle high wispy  fescue I believe it is the best alternative for parkland courses not blessed with the best terrain.

Mayday

So what happened at Rolling Green?  The property is certainly hilly with an abundance of severely uphill approaches and vicious greens.  Why the preponderance of left and right green-side bunkers?

Ciao 

[mike_malone]

Sean,

   Flynn was referring to fairway bunkers.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

   Flynn was referring to fairway bunkers.

Mayday

Thats an interesting distinction and one that probably deserves its own thread. 

Ciao

[TEPaul]

"As I come back to this topic after another spin around a Flynn course I think  of Flynn's preference to use the slant of the hills versus Ross's preference to go up and down the hill."


Mayday:

My observation with Ross is his preference or bias wasn't to go up and down the hill but to go down and up hills. The net effect of that bias or preference seems to make his courses play a little longer than their actual yardages and to also make approach shot club selection harder for many to most golfers. Combine the latter with the prevalence of false fronts on most of those uphill greens and you have a pretty interesting strategic combination. Add to that front pins on those particular holes (uphill greens and/or false fronts) and you can have a pretty intense strategic set-up. The last sentence is the precise way to make Seminole play really intense on tournament day. Frankly, the same is true with GMGC (my own club) and most every other Ross course with some good topography I'm aware of.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

While your statement about Seminole rings true on a number of holes, I think that statement only rings true since modern day green speeds took off.

At a green speed of 6-8, those front hole locations don't offer the challenge that they do a 10-12.

Holes go from benign to menacing.

Holes # 2 and # 11 being good examples.

In addition, the concurrent reduction in fairway heights adds to the golfer's dilema when elevated, fast greens have fronting hole locations.

With green speeds of 6-8 I think the back hole locations presented the greatest challenge, especially when trouble loomed over the green.

I think the playing effect on Ross's designs went through a metamophosis as green speeds and fairway heights changed.

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