[Yannick Pilon]

Thanks Tom for sharing this information with us.

As a professional in the business, it is always interesting to see how courses are done in other firms.  But I bet this is probably even more interesting to everybody else on this website who don't work in the business.

They can now see how a good course can be built for a reasonable budget.  It boggles my mind to see developers spend millions and millions, and expect to turn a profit in the end.

CommonGround sounds like the right way to go.

YP

[David_Elvins]

Adrian,

Am I understanding your post correctly? If we quit building dumps, and instead build golf courses, we can make money after all expenses?

Yes Bayley, we built the golf course and it cost us nothing and by importing inert waste we made money.... perfect recycling!!!!

Thats very interesting, Adrian. What sort of waste was it?  Have you had to allow for degradable material settling over time?

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thank you Tom & Eric Congratulations

Those other expenses sure do add up fast.

How many acres were irrigated?
Did you cap the tees?
Why do you use USGA greens when importing materials?
Did your telemetry experience come from Sebonack?
(great to hear how clean that water is on L.I.!)
What was the bulk of the $135K?

Cheers

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,

Am I understanding your post correctly? If we quit building dumps, and instead build golf courses, we can make money after all expenses?

Yes Bayley, we built the golf course and it cost us nothing and by importing inert waste we made money.... perfect recycling!!!!

Thats very interesting, Adrian. What sort of waste was it?  Have you had to allow for degradable material settling over time?

David - Im from the UK, many of the golf courses I have built have been from using this same method, ie; take a piece of land, get permission for a golf course, get permission for a landfill site. The permission is for inert material, which primarily is what is dug from the ground, so that is construction projects, road cuts etc. There is some settlement but in general everything settles together, so nothing is noticeable other than the heights tone down a little. In some cases the landfill has generated enough money for not only the golf course build but the clubhouse and maintenace equipment also....ie you get the lot for free.

[David_Elvins]

David - Im from the UK, many of the golf courses I have built have been from using this same method, ie; take a piece of land, get permission for a golf course, get permission for a landfill site. The permission is for inert material, which primarily is what is dug from the ground, so that is construction projects, road cuts etc. There is some settlement but in general everything settles together, so nothing is noticeable other than the heights tone down a little. In some cases the landfill has generated enough money for not only the golf course build but the clubhouse and maintenace equipment also....ie you get the lot for free.

Thanks Adrian, the power of supply and demand.  Over here in Australia it can at times be hard to get this sort of fill for free, let alone get paid to take it. 

[Tom_Doak]

Mike N.:

I've already given a bit more detail about this place than maybe I should.

If you get out to Denver to see the place, I'm sure Eric would be glad to show you around and answer other questions.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Sorry Tom
Thank you for sharing what you did
Nice work

[Tim Gerrish]

Tom and Eric,

Good stuff.  Price seems fair for the scope.  I overlooked the 9 hole kids course, $180K for project manager, really no earthwork and lack of topsoil management.  Our fee is not in the construction budget either.  That goes in the overall budget which includes all the other stuff marketing, maintenance during grow-in, etc.    Was the project prevailing wage?  

45 million for two in New Orleans.  Sounds like maybe some Union involvement and prevailing wage.  If you have to pay $45 an hour for a laborer, nothing gets done for $4 million.  

Adrain,  Are you seeing a decline in inert material with the increase in recycling?  Can you further define inert material?  Most projects here don't have material leaving the site, trucking has to be minimized.  Are you taking material from building foundations?  I'm assuming not from road construction, since the road should have a balanced earthwork number.  Interesting stuff.  

[Jonathan Cummings]

I played with Urbina in the Ren Cup last month.  He's quite proud of the product and the targetted audience.

It's a little funny to look at Tom and clan's stateside efforts.  They are concentrated in just a few states. 

(just my guess, don't have it exactly)
Mich - 3
PA - 2
CO - 2
OR - 2
CA - 2
a few others with 1....

Curious.  Almost nothing in the deep south, Fla and The Ohio Valley...

JC

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tom and Eric,

Good stuff.  Price seems fair for the scope.  I overlooked the 9 hole kids course, $180K for project manager, really no earthwork and lack of topsoil management.  Our fee is not in the construction budget either.  That goes in the overall budget which includes all the other stuff marketing, maintenance during grow-in, etc.    Was the project prevailing wage?  

45 million for two in New Orleans.  Sounds like maybe some Union involvement and prevailing wage.  If you have to pay $45 an hour for a laborer, nothing gets done for $4 million.  

Adrain,  Are you seeing a decline in inert material with the increase in recycling?  Can you further define inert material?  Most projects here don't have material leaving the site, trucking has to be minimized.  Are you taking material from building foundations?  I'm assuming not from road construction, since the road should have a balanced earthwork number.  Interesting stuff.  

Tim- you are spot on with your interpretations, inert material is simply naturally occuring material as dug and yes due to the recycling and best practices there is much less, architects design less to go off site, its getting more difficult to do as I have done .....build the course for zero.

[Craig Sweet]

Sounds like maybe some Union involvement and prevailing wage.  If you have to pay $45 an hour for a laborer, nothing gets done for $4 million.   
/quote]

$45 for a laborer?  Really?

[Chip Gaskins]

when you are paying $0 for drainage and $0 for earthmoving and $0 for greens construction and $0 for bunker sand [and $0 for a pond liner and $0 for cart paths and $0 for tree relocation], the numbers come down pretty quickly.  It's really all just shaping and irrigation and grassing, which costs significantly more on a windy, erodable, sandy site.

And there you have it...the recipe for a economically built golf course...its all about the beginning land.

Also, why so much for irrigation?  Seems like that has to come down with the lack of demand?  Was the cost of the oil in the PVC piping driving the prices up?

[Tom_Doak]

Jon:

Our courses are actually pretty spread out:

NY 2, NJ 1, PA 2, MD 1 (now defunct), VA 1, NC 1, SC 1, MI 3, IN 1, TX 1, AZ 1, CO 2, MT 1, WA 1, OR 3 (if you count The Sheep Ranch), CA 2.  Plus 5 out-of-country, so far.


Chip:

Yes, irrigation costs (because of PVC) rise and fall with oil prices.  And everything that gets traffic in Denver requires irrigation.  Denver is much more of a desert than most people realize.

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