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George Pazin

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Seems like there has been an inordinate amount of tension on the site, on matters stretching from etiquette to politics to famous old golf clubs, even occasionally branching out into golf course architecture.

I don't know about you guys, but when I get together with my closest friends, we feel comfortable calling bullshit on each other on virtually any topic, without fear that we are going to lose each other as friends, or initiate a major fight. The biggest reason for this, I believe, is that we have built up trust with each other, and know that when one calls out another, whether it's on religion, politics, or even really important stuff like golf clubs, each of us understand where the other is coming from.

So, to that end, I think we should expand on the "Who Are You Guys?" thread, with each day featuring a single gca'er. Said poster can share as much info as he cares to (allow me to just use "he", even though there are a few women among us), and then the rest of us can quiz him on anything we choose, attempting to keep the discourse light and fun.

For instance, if someone chooses to share info on his home course, we can ask him further questions. If someone like Dick Daley has expertise in a home away from home like Wild Horse, we can quiz him on that. We can ask questions about various gca events the poster has attended, or even things like asking Adam Clayman where the caddies hang out on the Monterey peninsula. Heck, you can even ask me why Ben Roethlisberger will eventually go down as one of the all-time greats in the NFL, and I would happily share my opinion (which is really more fact than opinion, after all, because it's mine).

There are many faces on golfclubatlas, new and old. Sometimes it's hard to keep them all straight, and I think this feauture would help us learn more about each other, in hopes of fostering better relations and thus better discussion on the site.

If there's one thing I can say about this wonderful site, it's that my personal experiences with posters far far outweigh any infighting that has arisen from a contentious thread. Some time ago, I got in a bit of a tiff with Patrick Mucci, yet when I saw him a few weeks later at the Baltustrol get together, he immediately greeted me with a great big smile that killed any tension between us, and we were both happier for it.

Let me know if you're interested, either by posting on this or sending me a private message. You can volunteer to take a specific date, or I can assign dates if necessary... :)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 04:07:28 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2009, 01:52:44 PM »
This is a terrible idea. You're an idiot. ;) ;D


Can we volunteer other people to participate in our stead? I can't imagine that anyone will care much about my accomplishments in the world of topiary.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2009, 02:06:59 PM »
What about this? There are GCA folks living everywhere. Why don't we get people to meet each other to play a round at a local course and post a photo essay like we did with the Grudge match?

That way we get to meet the folks involved, get to know a course, and get mroe people to meet face to face.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2009, 02:21:38 PM »
George I think that is a fantastic idea. You first  :)

Seriously its a good idea.
H.P.S.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2009, 02:37:33 PM »
What about this? There are GCA folks living everywhere. Why don't we get people to meet each other to play a round at a local course and post a photo essay like we did with the Grudge match?

That way we get to meet the folks involved, get to know a course, and get mroe people to meet face to face.

This has been proposed before, and I think it's a wonderful idea. I don't see any reason we couldn't do both.

The only real downside I see is if there are too many threads, pushing deserving threads off the first page. Perhaps we could consolidate a week's worth into each thread.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2009, 04:00:40 PM »
This is a terrible idea. You're an idiot. ;) ;D


Can we volunteer other people to participate in our stead? I can't imagine that anyone will care much about my accomplishments in the world of topiary.

2 things:

1) I'm sure you do many things others on here would find interesting

and

2) the purpose of this project is mostly for everyone to get to know each other better, in hopes of fostering better discussion. I'd like to see an end, or at least a minimizing, of the many who question others' motives, rather than simply addressing their posts' content.

My little sister would be proud of you, btw, I had to look up topiary. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom Huckaby

Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2009, 04:24:25 PM »
George - sent you an email on this subject.  Please read. 

I dig topiares.

 ;D

Kenny Baer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2009, 04:46:33 PM »
This is a GREAT idea; I would love to learn more about our fellow members.  Of the few GCA'ers I have met in person all have been terrific; they are also the only people who I can talk about golf and golf courses with.  I am all for it!!

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2009, 04:54:51 PM »
they are also the only people who I can talk about golf and golf courses with. 

Isn't that the TRUTH!!!

I tried to explain how special the surprise that the gang pulled on Dr Hereid taking him to the Pine Valley was to my wife and all I got was a blank stare (the best analogy I could come up with for her was to think of it like you are going to the airport to take a coach flight to NY, but instead of the regular airline airplane, the Air Force One lands and takes you to your destination). :)

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2009, 01:36:54 PM »
This is a GREAT idea; I would love to learn more about our fellow members.  Of the few GCA'ers I have met in person all have been terrific; they are also the only people who I can talk about golf and golf courses with.  I am all for it!!

Thanks.

It might be helpful to try to associate certain days with certain segments of our population on here. For example, we could do general golfers on Mondays and Fridays, architects on Tuesdays, green keepers on Wednesday, researchers/writers on Thursdays.

The more I think about it, the more I think we would need to have just 1 thread per week, to reduce the likelihood of pushing other threads off the front page. I (or whoever starts the thread) can modify the title to reference who's up.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2009, 01:47:45 PM »
George, There is one thing you could clear up... The apparent dichotomy in your love for Oakmont and your criticism of Black Mesa. Why is a shot irrevocable lost ok in Pittsburgh but not Santa Fe?
 
While there is no need to assume a persons opinion on every thing about GCA is entirely correct there's no reason to fear everyone who might disagree.

Hell, I think a couple of Dr. Mackensies principles are way off base. But then again, thats the problem with quantifying. Unless later in life you are given the chance to recant.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2009, 01:56:32 PM »
We do things like this from time to time here in So Cal. In fact, we're probably going to do something in the next 2 months. 
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2009, 02:03:31 PM »
What about this? There are GCA folks living everywhere. Why don't we get people to meet each other to play a round at a local course and post a photo essay like we did with the Grudge match?

That way we get to meet the folks involved, get to know a course, and get mroe people to meet face to face.

This has been proposed before, and I think it's a wonderful idea. I don't see any reason we couldn't do both.

The only real downside I see is if there are too many threads, pushing deserving threads off the first page. Perhaps we could consolidate a week's worth into each thread.


Great idea!

... and the way this has worked previously is you name a site and time and they will come.  I think TH put it that way some time back and it seems to work.

I offered about a month or two ago an impromptu get together as Pasa, since they have a good deal going right now through September, and it got zero response without a date and time.

So that would be my suggestion, pick a date, time, and venue ... and they will come.

My two cents.


“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2009, 02:16:34 PM »
George, There is one thing you could clear up... The apparent dichotomy in your love for Oakmont and your criticism of Black Mesa. Why is a shot irrevocable lost ok in Pittsburgh but not Santa Fe?

The simple explanation is that you are misunderstanding the definition of "lost" in each instance, or at least misapplying it. A lost shot at Oakmont means that the extreme penalty exacted by the course almost prohibits the possibility of recovery. A lost shot at Black Mesa means (to me at least, and this goes to the very heart of most of the disagreements I've had with others over BM) is literally lost, gone, the ball is never to be found, and one is left with trying to determine where the proper drop is, while digging into the bag for another ball. At Oakmont, you (or your caddy) find the ball, and you are left trying to figure out how to minimize the damage.

Death by a thousand cuts or death by shotgun blast, to paraphrase.

Hope that helps. My opinion of BM is much higher than everyone on here thinks; it's others' opinions of my opinion that is quite low... :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2009, 11:57:56 PM »
George
What did you teach your son this week or vice versa?
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Scott Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2009, 12:20:38 AM »
Sounds like a great idea, although no one should get to excited about Kyle's topiary.  ::)

Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2009, 12:40:55 AM »
Good lord. I thought this was a solicitation to spend more time with your kids....

I already  have a plant in my backyard which is how I would "want" Kyle to look.

There's also one of Huckaby sporting a beard :-X.

Hopefully Stamm will invite me to the nasty little soirιe he's planning.....Chips, dips, chains and discussion of bunker evolution always go well together.
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2009, 12:50:45 AM »
George, There is one thing you could clear up... The apparent dichotomy in your love for Oakmont and your criticism of Black Mesa. Why is a shot irrevocable lost ok in Pittsburgh but not Santa Fe?
 

I don't think George liked #16 at Black Mesa.

And I don't know if he has played Oakmont or observed it.  It's two completely different experiences.  I haven't played there since the tree clearing but would love to.  I'm not sure the trees made any difference to my two rounds there, but not sure. 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2009, 12:54:35 AM »
George, There is one thing you could clear up... The apparent dichotomy in your love for Oakmont and your criticism of Black Mesa. Why is a shot irrevocable lost ok in Pittsburgh but not Santa Fe?
 

I don't think George liked #16 at Black Mesa.

And I don't know if he has played Oakmont or observed it.  It's two completely different experiences.  I haven't played there since the tree clearing but would love to.  I'm not sure the trees made any difference to my two rounds there, but not sure. 

George has played Oakmont more than he has played Black Mesa.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ian Andrew

Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2009, 11:52:20 AM »
George,

I love the idea and suggest you start a list of proposed people on this thread.

If the person nominated sees their name- and agrees – the next stage is setting a date. It would be helpful if the day before the thread went up with the following:

1. A general bio
2. Some short thoughts or quotes about architecture
3. A start and end time for the thread.

That way if there are someone whose opinions we would like to know more about – we can schedule ourselves to be on site – or make note to read it afterwards.

I would suggest that one a week might be a great way to allow more discussion and build some excitement for the next person. I would suggest that anyone who has done a feature interview be excluded.

Some Suggested Participants:

•  Sean Arble
•  Mark Bourgeois
•  Mike Cirba
•  Lloyd Cole
•  Bob Crosby
•  Dick Daley
•  Thomas Dunne
•  Chip Gaskins
•  Gene Greco
•  Bob Huntley
•  Clyde Johnston
•  Kelly Blake Moran
•  Pat Mucci
•  Peter Pallotta
•  Brian Phillips
•  Mike Sweeney


Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2009, 02:37:45 PM »
George,
Damn good idea - let me know if I can do anything go help.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2009, 09:18:32 AM »
George,

I love the idea and suggest you start a list of proposed people on this thread.

If the person nominated sees their name- and agrees – the next stage is setting a date. It would be helpful if the day before the thread went up with the following:

1. A general bio
2. Some short thoughts or quotes about architecture
3. A start and end time for the thread.

That way if there are someone whose opinions we would like to know more about – we can schedule ourselves to be on site – or make note to read it afterwards.

I would suggest that one a week might be a great way to allow more discussion and build some excitement for the next person. I would suggest that anyone who has done a feature interview be excluded.

Some Suggested Participants:

•  Sean Arble
•  Mark Bourgeois
•  Mike Cirba
•  Lloyd Cole
•  Bob Crosby
•  Dick Daley
•  Thomas Dunne
•  Chip Gaskins
•  Gene Greco
•  Bob Huntley
•  Clyde Johnston
•  Kelly Blake Moran
•  Pat Mucci
•  Peter Pallotta
•  Brian Phillips
•  Mike Sweeney



Excellent thoughts, I will definitely incorporate a lot of them. I'm not surprised to see your list is very similar to mine.

Maybe one a week is a better way to go - thoughts, anyone?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A proposal for a new daily series: Spend a day with...
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2009, 03:30:16 PM »
Okay, another week, more tension, more vitriol, some of it by yours truly, sorry for adding fuel to the fire.

I plan on starting this series shortly, probably next Monday, after I contact a few individuals to line up early participants. I've already had several volunteers, thank you for that.

The initial plan is to start with 2 or maybe 3 a week and see how it goes.

Please feel free to post potential questions you'd like to see anyone cover.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Okay, thanks for those who expressed interest. We will be kicking off this upcoming WEDNESDAY, SEPT. 2 with...........JEFF BRAUER!

Thanks, Jeff, for agreeing to get the ball rolling.

If anyone has any suggestions for things they like to learn about Jeff, please post them on this page, or send him a message in advance.

The idea is basically to get everyone to know each other a little better, in hopes of fostering better discussion on the site.

-----

Jeff, some things I'm curious about:

- What got you interested in golf?

- What got you interested in golf course architecture?

- Do you have any more stories like your round with Pete Dye? I recall you saying he said at the end of the round he said something like "If someone watched us play, he'd think you scored much better than you did, and he'd think I scored much worse". A classic gca anecdote.

- What are you working on currently?

- Any regrets you care to share? Jobs you missed out on? Alterations that were forced due to outside circumstances?

-----

If you have any suggestions for the next person, please feel free to message me. I have someone in mind, haven't spoken to him yet.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
"You look like you're shooting 70 but you're shooting 90. I look like I'm shooting 90, but I'm shooting 70" - Pete Dye

As to getting into golf course design, "I was born a poor black child......."  No, just kidding. Sorry for the old movie reference......Cue the song....."Memories......of the way we weeeeerreeeee!"


My next door neighbors belonged to Medinah.  We snuck out there on a Monday, so my first round of golf was Medinah No. 3, a US Open course.  I fell in love with golf courses that day, and the ambiance of the club.  At age 12, no less. I went home and told my parents I was going to be a golf course architect!  Prior to that I had thought I would be a building architect (or as my Dad always called it, a "regular architect." When I asked him if I was an "irregular architect" he said, "No that comes later in life......" (rimshot!)  At about the time I took up golf, he had been bringing me home architecture books from his Saturday trips to the library.  One was on lawsuits against architects for boiler explosions and the like.  In addiiton to being impressed with the ambiance of Medinah, I began thinking that golf courses don't blow up.......

Actually, my ASGCA ties go back to that period.  Dad noticed in the Trib that the ASGCA had just moved its HQ from Wash DC to Chicago and sent for all the info they had, including some from NGF on golf course design.  One day, he came home with an envelope containing perhaps 20 phamplets and the booklet "Planning and Building the Golf Course" by the NGF. And the ASGCA roster.  I wrote RTJ and got a nice letter back.  I also wrote Killian and Nugent (being somewhat surprised to see a member in the next town over) and went in for an "interview" where they told me the basic plan to become a gca - summer jobs for landscape companies and golf courses, pursue and excel in landscape architecture, supplmented with turf classes, soils classes, surveying and site engineering.

I did all that and they felt obligated to hire me when I graduated in 1977.  I felt badly because Jim Blaukovitch was let go, although they had agreed he was going to go back to the Philly area where he was raised.  I worked there until the split up in 1983 and spent the next nine months working for Ken Killian, mostly because I was mostly working with him on projects at the time.  (Nugent thought I was too much of a smart ass, I think.....)  I didn't like it too much.  At the same time, we were working with Bill Kubly in a very much smaller Landscapes Unlimited.  It didn't escape my attention that he was six years older than I and had been in business.....six years.  I walked in to Ken Killian's office on my 29th birthday and quit.  To avoid competing with him, get in what I thought was the "hotspot" of golf design (and access a southern central connecting airport) I picked DFW to base my practice out of.  My market reseach consisted of looking in the yellow pages of several big city phone books (again at my local library) and seeing that Dallas was the only one without a golf architect listed.   Dallas, here we come!

I made a side trip home from the ASGCA meeting that year in Palm Springs, and picked out an office and apartment in a weekend.  I went home, got married and moved back down to Dallas within a few months.  I got my first job, again with some help from Mr. Kubly, who let me route a nine hole course extension in Holdrege, NB that he was going to build. I did it on my parents kitchen table, having already vacated my apartment. 

Later, he helped again by introducing me to a few Dallas folks at Eastern Hills in Garland, TX, east of Dallas.  My second clients were Wichita Falls CC and then the city of Wichita Falls who came by when we were working at the club.  I was on my way!  Within a few months, I got a call from a club near Shreveport, LA and the head of the selection committee was in the same boat I was, but in irrigation construction.  He took pity on me, and realized that a struggling associate probably did a lot of the work of a bigger firm and hired me.

In quick succession, I got a similar call from Odessa, TX and when they heard I had worked on Misson CC for KN, they hired me for the skill, proximity, and of course, lower fee.  About the same time, I was getting some photos printed, and ran into a local land planner, who told me a local city was doing an interview.  I got that job by pushing my public course experience when some of the bigger known firms pushed their "best work" rather than their public work.

A year later, I was slowing down, napping a bit I think, when the phone rang and it was Larry Nelson's Dallas based agent, trying to save a long distance phone call and get some info on Larry working with a gca.  I didn't let him get too far down the list......and in 1987 Brookstone in Atlanta opened.  It took until 1989 to secure a DFW 18 hole course, given how provincial Texans can be.

At the moment, I think I have designed 51 courses, although that includes 9 hole extensions, executive courses, etc.  But, more than half are new 18 hole courses.  I have done about twice as many remodels of various sizes and types, but less than 10 full blow outs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fast forward to today, and current projects include Firekeeper in Mayetta, KS which is heading towards grassing next week and some smaller stuff:

- Prelim design and grading for a housing project in the Midwest.  It stopped last year and is trying to get back off the ground.
- Two master plans starting next month,
-  A new/better short game area for my course in Newton, KS, because they are going after the national Publinx Championship.  
- A prelim study for a Britsh gent who is trying to buy a golf course here in Texas.  Right now, we are trying to give him an idea of just how much renovation would be necessary, and what he would accomplish golf and housing wise with various options, but I think/hope it will turn into actual construction.  I have done a few of these.  Seems like this "British Invasion" is a bit more golfy and a lot less musical than the one in 1964......
- I also have two consulting gigs, both focused on some damage assessments from some public utility "takings" from the golf course land.

I agreed to do this in part because on Monday I will have the kind of field day most associate with a gca since Firekeeper has many operations going on now - I will be marking grass lines and bunker edges, and approving shaping on the last few holes.  On Tuesday, Notah will be there, so I presume I will be at the (media) circus that day.  And then on Wed, I have breakfast with a supplier selling me the latest whatever before coming back to work on one or more of the projects listed above, not to mention that my Golf Industry Magazine column will be due the next day.

As I understand George's intentions with this, I gather I will post periodically through the day, perhaps starting Tuesday night upon my return from KS on the first two days.  At the same time, I guess you can all ask questions as we go.

My pig has been guineaed!
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 05:28:58 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach